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Financial Questionaire Violates Privacy Laws

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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/February/2008 at 1:56pm
The government of Canada can take quite a few approaches to making like rather challenging for people who do not want to provide information on a FIF (financial information form). There is a lot of proof that substantiates this. Law firms who sue for the government can demand that a borrower supply them with their spouse's information so they can determine if the loan can be repaid based on spousal income. If the borrower and spouse refuse to give that information, then the legal agent can proceed to execution of whichever enforcement method is most suitable. So, when the government requests financial information from borrowers, and the borrowers do not comply, they escalate the matter.
 
Question for Ottawa Girl - Could this be interpreted as any form of coercion?
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Ottawa Gal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/February/2008 at 3:01pm
johnny

i'd like to see that proof that you refer to - and what enforcement method options you are referring to...........you have identified nothing in particular and well i am not intimidated easily by legal language and by lawyers even less given my legal background....i am not a lawyer, but i can talk circles around most and beat them at their own stupid silly little games - so i would challenge them to escalate away so long as i was paying what i can and not running away from my responsibility, they have to play fair.....now if i was being a jerk and simply being irresponsible, then i deserve whatever is coming to me

a spouse is not responsible for the debts of anyone unless they co-signed - you might have meant that the government will consider the income of those in the household, as well as number of dependents and the household expenses, to make a determination surrounding the ability to pay ...lawyers can ask for the moon and make it sound legal......there are bullies everywhere, but i'd be asking for which piece of legislation (and then i'd be looking at caselaw, et al) which they think allows them the right to demand from another, the personal information of any individual - a marriage is not a licence to invade the other's privacy - the lawyers are counting on the ignorance in law of the  people they bully - and i guess its working

part of law's design is its mysterious legal language and instruments - it forces non-legal actors to frely on one of their own in order to sort things out......(everyone hates a lawyer - until they need one) - our politicians are almost all exclusively lawyers and guess who crafts law???

all licenced lawyers who have been called to the bar must obey a code of ethics in the provinces in which they are licenced to practice - any lawyer doing illegal things should immediately be reported to the governing body (law society) - i would suggest having a paper trail of conversations, complete with full names, positions, dates, times..........and let the person know you are keeping full notes........maybe they will call less?  we can hope




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote administrator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/February/2008 at 6:48pm
So I'm confused Ottawa Gal

You wrote "I can tell you from work experience in federal privacy that when it comes to a person owing money - its pretty much a free for all. There is a section in the legislation that authorizes organizations collecting a debt to do a lot of things without the individual's consent - including calling "anyone" to get information to track the person down - however they cannot reveal the amount (s) owed. "

Now you say that "but i'd be asking for which piece of legislation (and then i'd be looking at caselaw, et al) which they think allows them the right to demand from another, the personal information of any individual - a marriage is not a licence to invade the other's privacy - the lawyers are counting on the ignorance in law of the people they bully - and i guess its working"

So which is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 4:03am
Sorry about your confusion there Mark..........both statements you quoted are true

i have already posted the following to support either/or/both (but you will need to go back and read that post and the one preceding it)

"(b) for the purpose of collecting a debt owed by the individual to the organization;"


keywords:  owed by the individual

since the spouse is not the individual who owes money to the organization demanding personal and financial information, so the law I quoted (PIPEDA) prohibits its collection ..........so.............that being the case.........

I was saying that I would demand to know what statutory instrument  allows them to demand my spouse's personal/financial information and if they actually came up with one, (it was really more of a rhetorical statement on my part),  I would then do my research on what they say informs their work, to find out how the courts have interpreted it and whether the privacy law is paramount to it, etc - privacy laws are especially sensitive to inappropriate collections and disclosures of personal financial information - so I would really have fun torturing the organization demanding I provide it :)



while organizations can call anyone to get information on the whereabouts of someone that actually owes money, those organizations cannot legally ask for information regarding the debtor's wife/husband/partner, kids, mother, uncle/aunt, friend, dog (see where I am going with this?), as far as I know, there are NO laws in Canada that would allow for it.......but hey, on the off chance they say there is, I would want them to tell me what it is and would launch into my privacy legal mumbo spiel which should have them crying at their end, in no time......its the only fun  we have left, right?

So you see Mark, both my statements were true.........you just thought the first was about anyone at all, whereas if you read it again you will see that it was about an organization tracking down a person who owes a debt







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 4:12am
Johnny

Coersion is a legal concept usually used ias part of a legal defence, usually against cops who got confessions out of people illegally.........(beat the crap out of them), so I would say no - I would say if you owe money and are trying to avoid paying, you can't very well cry coercision if you willingly and without question just hand over all your personal information because you haven't even checked out if you have to hand it over...

ignorance of the law is no excuse to be stupid - of course they will threaten to escalate it.......I had a lawyer try to make me pay for my daughter's shoplifting once, an entire firm in Toronto dedicated to bullying parents into thinking bad legal things would happen if they don't pay.........my daughter was not living with me and had stolen a disposable camera.....the law firm wanted over $300.00 in "damages" and were collecting on behalf of the grocery store..........i did my research and believe me that law firm was sorry to have wasted a single stamp on writing to me.........needless to say, i never heard from them again.......once i threatened to sue THEM

knowledge of law is liberating...........before i knew law i was afraid of the legal machine...............now i laugh at the ridiculous ways it is used to intimidate.........and it works - most people are really afraid of being incarcerated.....and truth be told, there are more criminals on the street then "inside" as we do not have enough prisons so the government will do just about anything to NOT prosecute


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote administrator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 8:02am
A borrower is being phoned every day by a collection agency. The debtor knows they owe the money and want to pay it, but they dont have the money because of a poor paying job. The collection agency threatens to note on their file that they are being unco-operative if they dont fill out the form.

The legislation uses family income, so technically the family income is used to determine the payment amount regardless of which spouse earns it.

And the collection agency is constantly going over the expenses listed telling the borrower that they have to cut back on food or transportation expenses and give more money to the Collection agency.

So my question is this: How does the above information help borrowers on this site?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 10:58am
Coercion takes place at all sorts of collection levels, and it is not a physical beating, rather a manipulative psychological approach to get someone to talk. The cops smacking around a suspect in the hopes of getting a confession, well ... a third-party collector or government collection rep abusing power, office, and student loan borrowers, what's the difference?  
 
If a third-party hired by the government uses coercion tactics against a client of the govenrment, it is written as prohibited, but does not say it is illegal or criminal. The directives state that (which is interpreted as policy and not not law). So, the directives are issued but are not adhered to. If the government actually followed their own collection and recovery directives, the private collection agencies would be removed from collecting crown assets. The question is is it illegal for a government representative, or a hired third-party agent to use coercion tactics to gain payment of money? Physical punishment and psychological warfare have a similar impact on a person and his/her life. Emotional damage, panic attacks, severe depression and chronic anxiety - these are the the effects that debt crisis have on people, and are longer-term problems. Does the system actually recognize this? The system refusing to believe that this methodology is harming Canadian citizens, and the Canadian economy is nothing more than a product of denial.
 
As for the collection sector at the govenrment level, they require transparency in respect to borrowers and their partners/spouse's incomes. They want borrowers to pay based on the total income. However, if a partner or spouse refuses to allow the release of their income information, the government can take that as a refusal by the borrower to cooperate and then escalate. The borrower is being punished because of their partner's right to privacy. The government can simply make the condition that the inrormation be provided or no assistance will be given. Power is power, and these representatives have it.  I call it a status imbalance or inconsistency. A spouse is not responsible unless endorsed on the loan, absolutely. The collection sector is under trememdous pressure by their government heirarchy, and their heirarchy is under tremebdous pressure by the Treasury Board to recover money. If people refuse to cooperater in the manner that the government recivery sector requires, then the government can say either ok, we bow down to your refusal and resistance, or; ok, we are going to make an example out of you because you clearly choose to defy us. Sound familiar?
 
You have to remember Ottawa Girl, many people do not know the context of law. You do, that is fine.
 
 You wrote:
 
"I was saying that I would demand to know what statutory instrument  allows them to demand my spouse's personal/financial information and if they actually came up with one, (it was really more of a rhetorical statement on my part),  I would then do my research on what they say informs their work, to find out how the courts have interpreted it and whether the privacy law is paramount to it, etc - privacy laws are especially sensitive to inappropriate collections and disclosures of personal financial information - so I would really have fun torturing the organization demanding I provide it :)"
 
Ok. You go arm wrestle with Canada Revenue over this and see where it leaves you.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 2:31pm
Mark

I am unsure, but I think you are asking me this question:  "So my question is this: How does the above information help borrowers on this site?"

they now have some resources and some knowledge on privacy issues, which they can choose to deepen or access for themselves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulaffleck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 2:37pm
I concur.  If OG wants to "fight the good fight", good for her.  But I doubt it will be as much fun as she predicts.
 
With all due respect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 2:59pm
in your first paragraph, Johnny, to answer your question (assuming it was directed at me):  one situation is legal while the other one is not - there is no crime done in psychological, emotional or mental abuse - its not in the criminal code, period

as far as the manipulation of collection agencies and their abuses go, the bottom line is that anyone has to do is hang up  - nobody is forcing anyone to listen to their rants, threats and abuses - anyone can make a threat to sue - its not illegal to threaten to sue someone or for them to write notes in their own files about whatever they want - tell them to knock themselves out

we probably all know the collection agencies can write you are wholly uncooperative no matter how nice you are to them - so i would suggest keeping your own notes of the call (which I think I suggested elsewhere) - personally, i screen my calls - always and return the calls I feel like returning - i wouldn't return collection agency calls except to ask to speak to their lawyers and know their address (which I would then use to research them and tell them my phone is broken, gee, shucks, can they write??)

all policies have a basis in law - if the policies go against the law, bingo, you file a complaint with the government department administering that law, and go straight to the minister - copy the media and see what happens

i'd love to see proof (caselaw) about what you mention in the third paragraph of your post - you wrote:  "However, if a partner or spouse refuses to allow the release of their income information, the government can take that as a refusal by the borrower to cooperate and then escalate. The borrower is being punished because of their partner's right to privacy. The government can simply make the condition that the inrormation be provided or no assistance will be given." -

do you know if anyone has actually been prosecuted for the above?   if so, who won and can you give me the details, i.e., names of parties, jurisdiction, estimated dates?  if so, i can go look them up and be in a better position to comment - personally, i don't think this has ever happened, but what do i know.....




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottawa Gal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 3:02pm
paula..........i am not having trouble with revenu canada, it was a rhetorical statement

i have tango'd with them before, (in 1992) and won though

yippee!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote administrator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 4:04pm
So you hang up, and they call back, and you hang up and they call back, and then you dont answer the phone ...thats the exact story thats been posted here so many times.

I wish it were different. I had my own case with HRDC. They were obviously not following the law. In one case they were quoting a regulation that didnt exist. So after 6 months a reporter took up the story and they admitted there was no such regulation.... but it took reading 35 pages of legislation, getting a second opinion, trying to find a reporter....and after I won that point they countered with another point that didnt follow the regulations... In the end I would have had to sue them in the supreme court of canada to get them to follow their own regulations. I didnt have the time or the money to do so.

So particularly with student loans, just because there is a regulation, it does not mean that its followed. I mean, HRSDC's directives say that CA's are supposed to treat borrowers with respect and not be abusive. Is that being followed? Nope! I wish it were, and thats what this site is about.

I hope, Ottawa Gal, that you can take up the cause and fight for some of the members here on these issues! We need more people raising the issue in media and in legal circles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/February/2008 at 4:15pm
You work for the government, OT? You are aware of the privacy laws. as far as the govenrment carrying out action against borrowers who refuse to provide full disclosure of total household finances, you can contact any number of the legal agents that represent the AG in this matter and ask them if such a thing occurs. If you are challenging that, go do your research. You have the facility. Go get er done.
 
The problem is that the government wants to collect money, and the more people become aware of their rights and certain freedoms that surface as a result of awareness, the more difficult it is for the collection groups to collect using the archaic methodology of their paradigm. I read you - and understand you. However, you cannot beat the system. Being able to live and be productive while the system is doing its deeds is what is important.
 
Do you want to see people go to court and fight for themselves? This is not a landlord/tenenacy issue. This is a government in the form of a 400 lb gorilla. Like I said - you go arm wrestle with one of those and see for yourself. If you beat Revenue Canada in a suit, demonstrate the case. Surely it is in public record.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadillacjerk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/March/2008 at 9:40pm

Ok here goes, my wife is working for my little computer company, as explained before, in a previous post (somewhere on this site). She keeps getting ugly phone calls on our company cell phone from the warm hearted souls at CBV. They kind of gave up phoning her work (as often) once it was explained that she didn't work for them. However, they have now sent her this financial info form which asks her, among other things, what she spends on toiletries. (I guess they will want her to cut back on the jumbo pack of TP that we spoil ourselves with.) At any rate she filled it out honestly using her wages alone and with no extras she is already 150 amonth in the hole. This form makes no provisions for a spouse’s income (not that she would divulge that) and oddly enough does not ask for her SIN or any employment info.  So against our better judgement and against the esteemed Ottawa Girl’s advice, we are going to send it off. I will keep you posted. I fully expect them, in due course to figure who she does work for, and start turning the heat up on me.

 

A few years ago when a buddy of mine was being harrassed at his place of work  by a well known CA; soon after these collection clowns went ahead, got a court order to garnishee his wages. The company refused to act on it for the longest time until they too were sent a notice that they(the CA) would inturn sue the company for twice what he owed. Needless to say they folded and took the money off each pay cheque. I have often wondered the legalities of that.

 

Some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather restraints.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/March/2008 at 5:31am

Is it a Crown debt or an Ontario loan? Bank risk?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadillacjerk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/March/2008 at 10:58am
if you are referring to my situation Johnny, her student loan was with CIBC. My friends problem was from a divorce scenario, his ex had run up a stack of bills.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/March/2008 at 11:30am
The best thing to do inthis case would be to copy CIBC National student Center on the financial information. Collectors try to manipulate borrowers based on the information they provided. For example, if you claim to pay 100 per month for emtertainment, and 100 for clothing, they will argue with you about that. People do have the right to live and enjoy some entertainment, such as a movie and a dinner out with a loved one. Or, take their child or children out to a movie, and a meal at Pizza Hut. The costs for entertainment are balanced, but collectors and governments try muscle people about these expenses.
 
If you need help, let me eknow.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadillacjerk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/March/2008 at 9:53pm
you wrote>The best thing to do inthis case would be to copy CIBC National student Center on the financial information.
 
Johnny: Forgive my ignorance we are not sure what this means. Please clarify..
 
To reiterate; my wife's loans are 10 years old. For various reasons we declared bankruptcy in 2003 and in 2004 we were discharged. Her student loan was listed in the bankruptcy along with the rest of debts at that time. We never heard anything about this loan until Feb of this year when CBV came along starting with the threats and harassing phone calls. She has never said she will not pay, as a matter of fact she has offered to make payments but this idiot has not told her who to make payments to or interest rate or any other pertinent info, other than her to wire a 1000 dollars  immediately to some address that she can't verify and then go get a loan for $25000 and send that too. (which is impossible to do with a bankruptcy and this student loan blotch on her credit report)
 
So it has gone like this... he phones the house at 7:45 in the morning or at 8 30 at night demanding she call him, he calls her work demanding the fax number or to be put through to the payroll dept. or speak to her manager (thankfully she is the office manager and does payroll) or his favourite thing is to call our (company) cell phone 3 or 4 times a day and berate her or leave cryptic messages. To be honest; its getting to the point where I want to get physical with this moron, but that creates a whole new set of issues. For now we can just let him rant, although we are screening all calls its hard to do with a business. She did send off the form (unsigned and no payroll stub) and we are waiting to see his heartfelt reaction to this. It seems to me these types of clowns never seem to drop dead from stress yet they are carriers....
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather restraints.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/March/2008 at 8:39am
It means anything you send to the collection agency, send also to CIBC showing that the agency has received it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beerstud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/June/2009 at 1:15pm

I used to get statements all the time from CBV that showed how much I had paid and the amount outstanding. I pay using online banking, so I can use my statements to prove I am paying. I asked CBV about the lack of receipts sent out since January this year, they 'swithched to a new system and are having problems printing', was the response. Hmmm in this day and age that would be unacceptable for any piece of software in a business or home setting, to be on the market for 6 months and not be able to print. So the "real" reason is likely they do not have to provide receipts and thus are not bothering to. Maybe it is because of the new collector 'Abdul' who looks after my account, maybe he does not know how to get the computer to print.......... :lol:

Since my loan is with CIBC, but handled by those wonderful professionals at CBV Calgary,  do I have to fill out the financial questionarre? They send out this document, at least twice a year, very unprofessional looking, crooked on the sheet, not much space to enter information or to add any information. Also, the form is so poorly designed it looked like it was made on a typewriter and then scanned 15 years ago. Some places the information is for yearly amounts, other spots it is for monthly amounts. Hmm I just add it all together but do not hand in any paystubs. But I am wondering if this is an invasion of privacy under FOIP?

I do not enter any information in regards to my spouse, as this is FOIP. Is the entire form FOIP? I wonder is it actually being sent back to CIBC or does it just have their logo on it for CBV to collect more monies out of me.
The bank or national student center cannot help as the loan is in collections with CBV.
But if this was really for CIBC, would the form not look professional? Instead of this garbage form :?:
What happens if I do not submit the form, can they do anything to me?

Also, I looked at my credit bureau, they CBV are hitting my bureau twice a month some months????
Not sure of why, but it this counts as a hit on my credit bureau, no wonder my score does not really improve and getting credit is next to impossible.
The other thing, my student loan shows up twice on credit bureau, once for around 21000 which is the amount owing, and a second time for over 26000 which is the original amount.
Since that acccounts for almost 50000 of debt, imagine trying to obtain any credit, especially with both having R9 rating.
How can I get one of these off my credit bureau? Beg and plead with the bureaus?  Should they be listed twice? The lady at the loans at the bank says no, but.....

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