This website is a testimony to the problems Canadian Student Loan borrowers experienced from approximately 1996 to 2008 and until their loans were paid off.

The privatization of the Student Loans system by the Chretien and Martin Liberal governments broke the system and defaulted thousands of borrowers who were trying to pay their loans. There were even stories of suicide due to the harassment of borrowers.

Read the report that I prepared back in 2007 here. Canada Student Loans-The Need for Change Fortunately the new Conservative government at the time revamped the program and fixed the system for new borrowers, but borrowers under the previous program were left with ruined credit and continued harassment from debt collectors.

I call on the Canadian Government to apologize to the borrowers affected by this fiasco and make amends.

Unfortunately the Liberal government is again clobbering the Education system with their upcoming changes to International Student Visas. Yes, there's a problem, but instead of a well thought out plan, they have pulled the emergency brake on the train causing a derailment. This has introduced unprecedented instability for both private and public education institutions who serve both international and local students.

Universities can't plan. I've heard of courses being cut because the government has no process in place for universities to send the newly required acceptance letters to the government.

This means that students who have been accepted can not attend courses that start in the summer 2024 semester. With cut sections, current Canadian students will have trouble getting courses, and may have to switch to part-time which changes their enrollment status and might trigger repayment of their loans or ineligibility for funding. I've seen this before. It wreaks havoc on the student loan borrowers.

Again, the Liberal government has messed up the education environment. Will the new system needed in a rush for the acceptance letters be the new Arrivecan scandal?

I call on the government to implement a slower phased in approach and delay the requirement of the acceptance letters until a process is in place to submit these letters.


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    Posted: 30/August/2004 at 5:28am

You have to take care of yourself and your family first. That's a far higher obligation than any self-imposed requirement to keep to the terms of a contract that should be adjusted to conform the the realities of today. Insisting that you suffer outrageously in order to meet the terms of an obligation entered into without knowing what the future would dump on you, particularly when it benefits no individual, is beyond Quixotic.

Live your life. Believe me, the bankers will. And the collectors. And everyone else who lectures you about your obligations.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/August/2004 at 3:30am

casey - i know what you mean about living in the sticks. i don't have the luxury or seeing a shrink without a 2 hour drive and a 4 month wait so...

unless the government will get their heads out of their rear ends im afraid anyone making less than 40K will continue to get screwed over.  and if you owe money they will screw you over again.  it will be impossible for me to get out from under my debt - so i am trying to listen to javaman and relax about the whole thing.  live first and worry later - if i can pay them great if not too bad.

a smart government ??  thats an oxymoron if i  ever heard one

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Casey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 11:56pm

Originally posted by lasergirl lasergirl wrote:

Hi Casey. I understand your frustration.

I would suggest that you try again re: another
counsellor. Perhaps your regular gp would have
some additional info. I see a social worker at the
clinic where my family doc is. I don't want to see
another shrink (at least right now). The meds can
help but they are only part of the therapy process. I
don't think the goal of any kind of therapy is to have
the therapist solve your problems for you. I would
think that learning new coping skills and providing
support is more appropriate. Please don't give up. I
am trying to hang on as well.   

The thing is that I know what my problems are and have taken enough programs on coping, managing stress, depression etc. that I should have my papers.. However we the consumers of these programs do not qualify for credits.. I don't want or need pills! That sh*t can really screw you up big time.. I don't want to be drugged.. If I can't think what is the point of living?

I know how to manage my stress and my life. I have accepted the way things are with my mental and physical health.. I could get along quite well if I could rid myself of the stress caused by various government departments.. CSL is just one, the major one causing problems. These agencies want/ demand paper work to tell them what the problem is.

As to seeing someone else.. that luxury is not available where I live. When you live out in the sticks of western Canada you just don't have a lot of choices. People with money can go to the larger cities, that is not an option for me.. Being poor makes it just that much easier to keep you down..

I only have a few more years before retirement.. If I can hang on that long, things should get better.. One would hope that the government by that time should finally understand how poor I am.. Maybe I'm expecting too much.. Maybe they will start a new retirement program that locks up old retired SL debtors..  Sure, it wouldn't make much sense, locking people up at $50,000 to $100,00 per year to keep them. I sure would cost a lot more and do nothing to recover the debts. Then, who said the government ever does the smart thing?

Casey  . . .

 

 

 

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And Lasergirl? Thank you.

Let me make this point. The reason these abuses haven't become a major human rights issue is the fiscal-centred mindset that is typical of the Western world.

What I mean is that the only people who are being systematically abused here have first been excluded from consideration by society. Their abuse therefore is of no interest to anyone. No one cares about someone who is abused if they have first been reduced in dignity to "welfare recipient". No cares about your complaints if you are a "debtor". If you are a "bankrupt", your suffering is completely immaterial to anyone. Just pay your bills, get on the RIGHT side of the fence and maybe you'll find an audience for your indignation.

While you are one of the marginalised, you can press your face up against the glass, but they'll just pull down the blinds. Get inside where it's warm and the conversation will only be about where to invest and avoid taxes, because we "waste so much of our tax money on welfare schemes like the student loan give-away".

Human rights? Hell, they only apply to human beings. If you're not among the fiscally independent, you don't qualify as human.

 

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Try to take a cavalier attitude towards the whole thing. That's what the collectors want to do...destroy your peace of mind.

The fundamental principle of debt collections is: Make it more uncomfortable to owe the money than to pay it off.

Therefore, if you are going to suffer by meeting their demands, they have to make you suffer proportionally more if you DON'T meet their demands. If you will undergo pain to pay them, they will try to ensure that you have even greater pain if you DON'T pay as demanded.

Tell them, "Sorry, can't help you today. Anything else?" Be relentlessly cheerful. On the phone, it's only words. They can't do anything to you that they haven't already done. So do your best to honour your debts. Don't let them convince you however, that you owe it to anybody to cause your children to do without food, clothing, education, entertainment and medicine. Don't let them make you feel as if a tiny luxury in your life ( a movie, a few beers with friends, a pizza night with the family) is something your not entitled to. You ARE entitled to that much comfort and dignity. And that comes BEFORE meeting their payment demands.

No matter what your agreement, you have a right to live like a human being. You deal with that first. Then pay if you can. It was a loan. That's business. Companies deal with corporate debt in that way all the time. The banks are corporations, it's THEIR OWN way of dealing with business deals.

A bank will close its doors, lay off thousands of people and bankrupt hundreds before they will lower the salaries of their board members or their CEO. Why? Business. Those people know that you take care of yourself and your family first. Other considerations come later.

And you know what? They're right. Play by their rules and sleep well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 10:07am

my husband had an interesting observation last night.  he rarely says much but this made me think. ( this might ramble on a bit - sorry)

i owe the bank money - about 30K.  the same bank that posted in excess of 600 MILLION in profits previous quarter.    600 million/120 days=5 MILLION in profits per day - and they continue to systematically destroy my life by sending me to collections rather than negotiate in good faith.  oh feel sorry for the banks being victims of computer fraud and spending all that money upgrading their securtiy systems when my hubby was still defrauded of 600 bucks by an email transfer he never authorized ( the rcmp caught the guy and he got his cash back but thank god he had overdraft for the four months it took to get resolved.  when you live paycheck to paycheck a 600 mistake causes lots of problems).  oh feel proud to put your money in the bank they are a sponsor of the olympics or the theatre or whatever but how many grants and scholarships have they given to deserving students ?  how about some loan forgiveness for those of us who could really use it ??  if i can qualify for interest relief why cant i qualify for loan forgiveness or debt reduction ?  and what would possess a bank to give a 19 year old a credit card in addition to a student loan anyways ??  they really expect a family of 4 to live on 35K with today's cost of living ??  35K would be fine but once the government takes their cut its more like 24K - for rent/mortgage, vehicle payment, insurance, gas, hydro ( gotta love the way that bill has been going through the roof), gas/heat, phone, vehicle maintenance, health care ( dentist, glasses, medication.  not everyone has a health plan), oh and groceries too.  other bills - personal loans or credit cards, water bill, taxes, internet, cell phones, satellite or cable tv never leave much room for entertainment or savings.  none of which is even considered for debt reduction or loan forgiveness.  but the bank is trying to make things easier for students to repay their loans - sure, if you haven't missed any payments yet.  they post on their website that they have donated so many millions of dollars to charities over the last year.  should i pat them on the back for being so socially responsible when their policies drive people to homelessness, depression, collections and mental breakdowns ??  i thought we were their customers and they worked for us - not the other way around.  i try to navigate the websites to get info on my loans but can't - since my loans are before 2000 i cant access anything online, either at the bank (because i have no account for them to like it to) or NSLC.  so i have to sift through the last ten years worth of statements hoping that documents i need didnt get trashed in a flood.  i try to negotiate a payment i can manage but no one seems interested in a revision of terms.  and why is it that i always talk to a different person even though i request to speak with Nicole at BNS - she hasn't returned my calls at all this past month.  god forbid they hire someone who knows what they are talkning about - ask them about collections and they have no idea what you can expect.  the lst girl i spoke with suggested i get a personal loan to pay them off.  honey, how can i afford payments on a personal loan when i cant pay you. hello, lights are on but noone is home.

i cant pay them back.  not that i dont want to ( mind you the way ive been getting jerked around since graduation i must admit to not being in a hurry to pay them at all ) i just cant.  because the same government that allowed me  - no ENCOURAGED me - to get into debt with their student loan program is the same government making it impossible for me to get a job  .  i cant afford car insurance (government regulated ).  i cant afford daycare (government regualated ) if i could afford the car insurance to drive my kids the 45 minutes to the nearest daycare facility ( government funding cuts ). i cant afford to work for less than 12 bucks an hour to cover the cost of daycare - 35 bucks per child per day plus the extra gas driving to and from daycare and i will likely have nothing left of my paycheck to put towards my loans once the government takes its cut  - so i am stuck in a nasty downward spiral.

why am i losing sleep over this ?  i owe money and i cant pay.  too bad for them, they should know better than to lend money to students.  i have no assets for them to seize, no means of repaying my loan in the next three years ( once my kids are in school i might be able to get a job, providing my health permits it and the job market is cooperative).  and the bank has no desire to wait that long - send it off to collections and ruin someone else's life.  that doesnt mean im not a good person  ( i think he made me cry here)

if the banks would freeze interest rates on student loans at 1% they would still make money and it would be easier for us to repay them.  if they were more flexible with paymnent options maybe they'd get more of their money back.

if they dont want to play nice, why should i play with them at all ??  play nice or go to your room is what i tell my kids.  same goes for the banks and the collection agencies and the government ??  play nice or else ?  pretty soon no one will want to play with them and they can kiss their profits goodbye altogether.

sometimes the man has a point...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasergirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 8:48am
Hi momof2. I am trying to be an active participant in
my treatment for depression. It's hard for many
reasons but one thing is that I feel what is the point
of trying to be co-operative with the student loans
people (the ca's) because they will just try and take,
take, take and intimidate me. It's hard to move
forward when this problem will exist for many more
years. I suppose therapy could help us to deal with
this problem differently and to develope better
coping skills. What did any of us on this forum do to
deserve this treatment? I only wanted to make
something of myself and be a productive member of
my community and country. Instead we get treated
like sh*t and harassed and abused.

What happened to JavaMan should become an
international human rights issue. Instead, Canada
loses the benefit of his knowledge because all the
gov't can see is the bottom line (BTW Java I am not
criticizing your decision to leave Canada and never
return-I understand why you did so).

Put yourself and your family first momof2. keep
trying to find the support you deserve. I am here to
listen, empathise and offer support if I can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 6:58am

being educated does not mean a person is intelligent or able to communicate or apply theri knowledge ( unfortunately).

definatley try to get a new shrink.  tell your shrink now that she is not being helpful at all - it might make you feel better telling her how useless she is and it might help her adjust her style and possibly help others that she sees.  i'm not suggesting a screaming rant but stuffing her degree in a trash can and lighting it on fire would be fun...but not polite

i am still struggling to get properly diagnosed after a year of tests.  depression, anxiety, mood swings, insomnia, fatigue, carpal tunnel, thyroid problems, sore muscles and poor memory, stress...my doctor is now looking at chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia on top of my carpal tunnel.  i think he's hoping once we can pinpoint what is physically wrong with me the other stuff( anxiety, stress, depression) will magically disappear.  did i mention my gp is way too relaxed ?  but he's the only doctor in town who doesnt just throw drugs at everything so though it might take longer at lest he will figure out my problem.  i just hope it doesnt take much longer

i have no access to a shrink right now and the area social worker is a birdbrain (not to mention she has a big mouth and since i live in a small town i really dont want everyone to know my problems).  the specialist i am trying to get in to see has about a four month wait period.  for now, these forums are my therapy.

so if anyone needs someone to talk to, feel free to email me.  sometimes just having someone listen to you can make a big difference.

hang in there - things have got to get better, right ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasergirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 5:19am
Hi Casey. I understand your frustration.

I would suggest that you try again re: another
counsellor. Perhaps your regular gp would have
some additional info. I see a social worker at the
clinic where my family doc is. I don't want to see
another shrink (at least right now). The meds can
help but they are only part of the therapy process. I
don't think the goal of any kind of therapy is to have
the therapist solve your problems for you. I would
think that learning new coping skills and providing
support is more appropriate. Please don't give up. I
am trying to hang on as well.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Casey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/August/2004 at 12:13am

Hi guys..

This is really sad though laughable at how stupid some highly educated people can be. Unfortunately this is what we are up against!

After "F'ing around with the mental health system for over 20 years and not really getting much help, I finally demanded and got to see a shrink.

What a disappointing experience.. not sure if I should  or .. 

She had the answer to all mine (our) problems..  That is according to her, none of us really have any problems.. 

1) - STRESS: "just a normal part of life and we have to learn to live with it."

2) - FINANCIAL PROBLEMS: "just get your finances organized and pay your monthly payment on your SL and it will not be a problem."

She didn't hear me when I told her it was hard enough to have a basic living, eat etc on what I got each month..  or at least the  replied sure wasn't very helpful "don't worry, you can work it out"

3)- FINAL SOLUTION: "I am here to help you.. I will give you medication to make you feel better. Then you will have no problem getting a job and everything will be OK"

I asked about medication and my fears of the problems and side effects.. Her reply.. "all medications are good, there is no problems with them. Just take your meds as we tell you and everything will be just fine!"

So in talking to me for less than 20 minutes, asking questions, not really listening to what I said,  minimizing my worries, concerns and problems, this person claim to know everything about me. Based on this she can make a diagnoses??? 

What a waste of time. This shrink (Alice in wonderland) has her head buried so far in the sand that she has no idea about real life..  (must be taking her own meds!) Sure, If I got her $100,000 per year, I wouldn't have these problems.. How about her living on my $9,000 per year? I'd like to see what problems she would have then!

Based on this experience, if this is a true example of the support there is for us, it's no wonder other people in power can't see or understand the problems we are having.. It really makes you wonder what we're hanging around for??

Casey . . (drowning in the sh*t pile!)     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/August/2004 at 10:34pm
very much depressed

my advice read the forums there is so much info

and dont let depression rule you take control of your life: first step is this  site for info
Johnny save me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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why is it that the government sees nothing wrong with the big six banks posting mind-numbing profits ( what was the number - 625 million profit last qtr by BNS ??  i forget - i was too stunned after hearing it on the news) but sees nothing wrong with gouging students and young parents trying to pay off our debts.  with what i paid into the system in tax dollars before i started working would cover what i borrowed for my sl's twice over and what i pay the bloodsuckers in user fees and service charges since i opened my first bank account would pay off my minivan.  my son had his birthday yesterday and i said screw my visa payment and ordered him a birthday cake and balloons.  you're only three once and i'll be damned but my kids always come first.  my credit will be in the sewer once my sl's are in collections next month so screw it - does it really matter if i miss a visa payment if my loans are in default ??  usually i try to keep everything current but some times you just have to  the system and do what feels good.

sorry to run on like that but it felt good.

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Those programs are fine if your loans are still in good standing, but I have yet to see any decent initiative for those whose loans have defaulted. The attitude seems to be "let them rot in hell and we'll just keep collecting the interest".  The whole idea is so preposterous it's as if the 1990 - 1995 changes to the CSL system were designed to screw over students in one big cash grab by the feds.
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Originally posted by lasergirl lasergirl wrote:

They claim to have all these great
programs to help s/l debtors but nobody seems to
qualify for them. I am on your side in this matter!!!

 

These programs are all well and good for those whose loans are still in good standing, but I have yet to see any decent initiative for those in default and struggling to pay back their loans.  The attitude seems to be to "let them rot in hell, and we'll skim off the rich creamy interest". It sounds so nutty, it's as if the 1990-1995 changes to the CSL program were scammed up as one major cash grab by the feds.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Casey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/August/2004 at 2:35am

Originally posted by lasergirl lasergirl wrote:

God#mn any system that can be so repressive as todo this
 to someone .
F*ck them and f*ck their unethical tactics and constant
mistakes. It'll be a cold day in hell before I have anything
good to say about a bank and the whole student loan
system. Take care of your kids first. They are more
important than the gov't.

I have no problem trying to do the right thing and pay
what little I can every month but when the system
repeatedly kicks you in the ass and criminalizes and
belittles you then I get annoyed (well a little more
than annoyed but I can't use those kind of words in
this forum!!). They claim to have all these great
programs to help s/l debtors but nobody seems to
qualify for them. I am on your side in this matter!!!

I'LL DRINK TO THAT! 

Just so the lurkers don't get it wrong.. I'll be drinking water.. Can't afford anything else even if I wanted to..

Casey . .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lasergirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/August/2004 at 6:00pm
Hi John. I will contact you early next week. Thanks,
lasergirl

Momof2- YOU DO NOT SUCK AS APARENT!!! I've
read your posts and it's pretty obvious that you are
very concerned for them. God#mn any system that
can be so repressive as to do this to someone
. F*ck them and f*ck
their unethical tactics and constant mistakes. It'll be
a cold day in hell before I have anything good to say
about a bank and the whole student loan system.
Take care of your kids first. They are more important
than the gov't.

I have no problem trying to do the right thing and pay
what little I can every month but when the system
repeatedly kicks you in the ass and criminalizes and
belittles you then I get annoyed (well a little more
than annoyed but I can't use those kind of words in
this forum!!). They claim to have all these great
programs to help s/l debtors but nobody seems to
qualify for them. I am on your side in this matter!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/August/2004 at 3:01pm

glad to hear i am not the only one struggling with depression and stress over these sl's.  anyone else not sleeping ?  we should all get together on msn and chat at 3 am.

BNS actually had the balls to call me today - someone i have never dealt with before, actually suggesting i could renegotiate my OSL for more manageable payments.  what is manageable when you arent working and have 2 kids ??  boy did i let her have it.  i tried asking for that three weeks ago and was told no way would they do that for me i would have to prepare myself for the fact that the loan would go to collections shortly - they wouldnt even take the lousy 40 bucks i could pay at the time.  lets see if the paperwork she promised me this morning ever reaches me.  she also had the nerve to suggest i take out a personal loan to pay off my csl - honey, if i would qualify and could afford the payments - wait a second, if i could afford the payments i'd BE paying my csl and osl -  i swear to god you have to be brain dead to work at BNS.

i have the lovely task monday morning of calling TD because i cant afford my full payment this month - had to replace a smashed light on my vehicle at a lovely 150 bucks otherwise i could scrape by as i have been doing.  im hoping they will be nice since i have been trying to keep up to date even though the card is maxed out big time.  i actually havent been able to sleep because im sweating being short 75 bucks on my visa payment.

how can i pay my csl osl and my visa on a lousy 250 a month ???  theres no way in you know where.  and that money is my cctb and i should be putting it away for my kids.  god i suck as a parent but i guess having a sane parent is worth it.

im kind of looking forward to going into collections - they have to take whatever i can afford to give them each month - even if it is only 5 bucks.  i am hoping to keep the osl out of collections but at this stage in the game im not holding my breath.

and my husband wonders why i cant sleep  - i keep telling him he was better off before we got married.  our house is also full of mould and we get mice in the fall and spring.  there is wet rot in the basement and a lovely musty odor that keeps everyone out of the basement.  the roof leaks, the foundation leaks, and we apparently have 2 years to get our kids into seperate bedrooms ( we are in a 2 bedroom house - and its a small - i mean small - house for two kids under 3). there is nothing larger in our area - we would have to add on - and we can't afford that either.  worse than that - my hubby actually has a mortgage on the place so we are trying deperately to sell it before the place falls apart.

miss mj, i know how you feel.  if you need to commiserate with someone, you know where to find me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolveStudentDebt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/August/2004 at 12:44pm

 

laser girl,

 Contact me and let's talk. 

Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Hi Mersan. I try and do my best to be a responsible
Cdn and pay something towards my s/l's. I am
going back to school so in (max.13 yrs) I will
probably be going bankrupt again. I am getting to
the point where I simply don't care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mersan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/August/2004 at 8:06am

I probably went off topic a bit but what is therapeutic for me is to put my situation in context.  I am a lifer and my account has been at Justice for about 14 years and there have been times where the educational and student loan system have driven me to incredible despair.  It has caused great stress in my marriage. Perhaps the biggest ordeal was suffering through this in silence.  There were moments where I blamed myself for my state of affairs. The people at justice seem to delight in criminalizing my debt burden and my inability to pay.  Whenever briefly I have bought into their world view is when the depression has become worse.  When I feel best is when I fight back.  Writing about it gives me satisfaction as I know they are lurking. 

 

I am calm now even though the big battle remains ahead.  It still preoccupies me but I know that when it is finished there will have to be criminal charges against those at Justice and HRDC who have broken the law.  This is the chance they take in litigating this.  They will be facing consequences for perhaps the first time.

 

The important point is that I have gotten through it and they have tried very hard to destroy me.  So keep your chin up.

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