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Topic: When are the details coming? Posted: 02/April/2009 at 5:37am |
OK.... its April...Students are graduating this month... where are the details of what help will be available to them? None.... how can these graduates plan for paying back their loans if they dont know any details about the new RAP program...
Also, the canlearn site says they will use Gross Income... and last year's salary.....
How will people who've lost their jobs or had reduced hours apply if they use the previous year's salary?
New Program same mistakes...
Here's the info page on the canlearn website... supposed to be implemented in Fall 2009.
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Administrator Mark OMeara Author of Let Go and Heal: Recovery from Emotional Pain https://LaughSingWrite.com - http://bit.ly/heal2024
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madmaple
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Posted: 02/April/2009 at 11:54am |
In regards to the new graduates, I don't think they have too much to be concerned with yet. It seems to me that until the new RAP comes in, they will still operate under the previous rules ....... which means they have six months before they must start making payments, and by that time the RAP details should be out.
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madmaple
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Posted: 02/April/2009 at 11:59am |
Having read through the material at the CanLearn link, I think the most important detail we need to find out is if the new RAP will be available to those who have defaulted on their existing loans. If so, it will make life a lot easier for many, based on the initial read through. If not, it will make absolutely no difference to many who have defaulted and could never hope to "catch up" the missed payments and interest.
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madmaple
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Posted: 02/April/2009 at 12:11pm |
Hopefully they will release the table used to determine the payment to be made. Although it is stated that nobody will have to pay more than 20% of their gross income (a BIG figure), it seems clear that this is the top end of the scale. Payments will be determined based on INCOME instead of the amount of debt. If you look at one of the examples they give, a person earning 30k annually would pay $107 / month no matter what their debt total. Obviously, this is nowhere near 20% of income. The new RAP seems to be setting up to allow low income earners to make no payments (it indicates those earning under $20k annually fall in to this category) , while everyday middle-class earners will make payments much lower than we do now. High incomes will pay substantially more. I can't help but wonder if there is a hidden catch ..... it seems too good to be true.
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administrator
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Posted: 02/April/2009 at 3:57pm |
I am concerned about the new grads... they will graduate this month..... and will be worrying about what to do about their debt loads.... and wont have any idea what will be available to them.
The canlearn website says the implentation is Fall 2009.
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madmaple
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Posted: 03/April/2009 at 5:32am |
administrator wrote:
New Program same mistakes...
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Based on the general information available so far, I'm curious as to what you feel are the same mistakes with the new RAP? Although the specific details have yet to be released, I think it is much better than the current system.
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Posted: 03/April/2009 at 7:36pm |
Using gross income instead of net income. Using family income instead of treating both applicants separately. Based on experience, I dont really have confidence in HRSDC coming up with rules that will help. Also note that at first this new program was optional, then it changed to all borrowers transitioning into the new program. Old literature said that this would be benefit people with low incomes. Now it says it will benefit people with very low incomes.
As for using family income, if you arent making enough to pay your loan as single person, then using family income implies that your spouse will have to pay your loan.
Also, collections is being taken over by Canada Revenue Agency...
And just like you said, although specific details have yet to be released, how can you say it is better than the current system. 20% of your income is pretty high. 30% goes to deductions, 25% to rent, and 20% goes to student loans, leaving.... 75% of your gross income is gone before you get to buy food. I know, its up to 20% but usually the government sets the qualifying threshold so low that people who need help dont qualify...
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madmaple
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Posted: 04/April/2009 at 1:54am |
administrator wrote:
Using gross income instead of net income. |
I understand the issues that have been raised in regards to the use of gross income. However, using net income also presents problems; for example, there are many payroll deductions available that could be used to lower a net income and make it appear that your financial situation is worse than it is. In the end, the structure of the program is more important than whether gross or net income is used.
Using family income instead of treating both applicants separately. |
I agree that there should be concern over the
use of family income, as there is virtually nothing out about how that will
affect a couple who both have student loans. Treating both applicants separately though also has problems. Would it reallky be fair to classify an individual as very low income (and thus not have to make payments) when their spouse is earning $75k+?
Based on experience, I dont really have confidence in HRSDC coming up with rules that will help. |
That's understable, especially in regards to governments and the bureaucracy. No disrepect intended........but if you don't think that things are going to change, or can change, then why did you set up this site?
Also note that at first this new program was optional, then it changed to all borrowers transitioning into the new program. |
Where did you get that from? From the CanLearn link you provided: "The Repayment Assistance Plan is an optional program for students facing difficulty in meeting their student loan payments."
"Current Interest Relief and Debt Reduction recipients will transition into the new Repayment Assistance Plan."
In any event, based on how the program is presented so far, I can see no reason why anyone wouldn't want to choose RAP over the existing method of repayment.
Old literature said that this would be benefit people with low incomes. Now it says it will benefit people with very low incomes. |
Again, no disrespect or anything like that intended, but it seems like you are looking for reasons to condemn the program before all of the details are out. I'm not suggesting that it will fix everything or be perfect in every way, but from what has been released so far it appears to be much better.
As for using family income, if you arent making enough to pay your loan as single person, then using family income implies that your spouse will have to pay your loan. |
The new RAP is supposed to determine your payment based on income instead of the old method of determing your payment based on the total debt. Looking at the various examples given on the CanLearn site, this is by far a better method. Also, it was stated that the payments you make go directly towards the principal while a) the government pays the interest, or b) no interest accumulates. Borrowers should feel hope when they see their debt steadily declining instead of moving downwards by microscopic amounts when interest eats up most of their large payment.
Also, collections is being taken over by Canada Revenue Agency... |
And that's not necessarily a bad thing, even though it seems to have a number of people scared to death. With RAP determining your payment based on income, which seems to be a reasonable amount based on the examples shown, then certainly most, if not all collection actions will be against people deliberately trying to avoid their responsibilities.
And just like you said, although specific details have yet to be released, how can you say it is better than the current system. 20% of your income is pretty high. 30% goes to deductions, 25% to rent, and 20% goes to student loans, leaving.... 75% of your gross income is gone before you get to buy food. I know, its up to 20% but usually the government sets the qualifying threshold so low that people who need help dont qualify...
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There are many low & middle income people right now whose payments are 20% or more if they were even able to make them; and even if they were, their principal is barely moving down at all. You are focusing on that 20% figure too much. That is clearly the top end of the scale, but until we see the scale we will not know exactly how payment level is determined. Look at the examples on CanLearn again. An individual earning $30k annually would make a payment of $107 monthly ..... that's less than 5% of income annually! At $35k the payment is $173 monthly, or about 6% of income. At $44k the payment is $327 monthly, or about 9% of income. These numbers are for individuals. Presumably there will be a sliding scale based on income and the number of dependents. The current system sets payments based on the amount you owe.......and if you do not get a decent job soon after graduation you become one of the many who will struggle for many years. The new RAP gives me hope for the first time in years ....... maybe the light at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train!
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old hippy
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Posted: 04/April/2009 at 4:28am |
madmaple,
No offensive or disrespect, but you can't possibly be that naiive unless you've had no previous experience with student loans and the NSLC. The CanLearn site has provided us with fairy tale examples but where are they getting their figures? Why haven't they just provided us with the income chart? Will they be making it up as they go along? More than likely....
After struggling for many years, I do have a fairly good income at the present time although that could change. If it does change I will be ripped off for any more Debt Reduction from the previous system. If it doesn't change and I'm stuck with 20% of gross income payments - NOT happening. I know they don't care if I'm eating cat food in my retirement years.
How long is the repayment period? I've been in repayment since 2000. Do my 15 years start when I'm accepted into the RAP? Before the 15 years are up for anyone there will be another new program comes along. Then what? We start all over again?
Lots of questions and no answers. They probably don't have any. They are the government....you trust them?
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Posted: 04/April/2009 at 11:38am |
Respectfully, Mad maple sounds like a HRSDC employee defending their department. The program is optional -so is interest relief -you can apply or not apply. BUT ALL BORROWERS WILL TRANSITION. Thats what changed. IR and DDR are being scrapped and people have no idea whats replacing it.
If you had been around when we did the online petition and read the signatures... you'd know what I mean about the problems. Even SUICIDES due to student loans.
I created this site because I wanted change. The only time HRSDC seems to respond with any effort is when there is major media publicity. It took me 6 months to get some forms that were being denied to me. They were quoting a regulation that didnt exist. Pointed that out to them over and over again.... no good. They faxed me 38 pages of regulations. Read through them all. Again told them there was no such regulation.... Got the media involved involved in exposing the scandal, got the forms. But then I hit another roadblock with incorrect interpretation and definition of disability. You can be disabled and recieving benefits from one HRSDC department, but not according to student loans.
On the front of the main page there is a report I did on student loans. Respectfully, you should read it before posting again.
Thousands of people have been defaulted by mistake. They are ineligible for IR and DDR. HRSDC has done NOTHING to resolve these problems.
In 2003 there was a higher default rate cause the automatic payment system was broken. No one was notified. I had people trying to make payments on this site but the money would never come out of their account. HRSDC did nothing... defaulted them and denied them IR and DDR.
These are just a few of the items. I remember calling HRSDC a few years ago and the senior advisor didnt even know the rules about bankruptcy... and another senior advisor wasnt even aware that CIBC had handed their loans over to Edulinx. I WAS INFORMING THEM OF THIS..... and this person was a senior policy person!
I've seen so much incompetence and lack of action on HRSDC's part that it really ...well I have to stop writing now cause its getting me pretty P>I>S>S>E>D O>F>F>
I've also intervened in two suicide cases and have heard of a third where a person was harassed so badly.... and did commit suicide.
So MadMaple.... read up all the literature and then we can have a debate.
HRSDC's mis-management of the student loan program has not exactly instilled confidence in the borrowers.
Either you are really naive or an HRSDC employee.
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madmaple
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Posted: 04/April/2009 at 4:30pm |
old hippy,
In dealing with the loans for my spouse and myself, I have
encountered more bureaucratic incompetence, insensitivity, and downright
stupidity than I ever wanted to experience in my lifetime. I have dealt with the bureaucracies at all
levels of government (municipal, provincial, & federal) for a variety of
reasons and purposes. In my experience,
the odds of success are increased greatly (and stress / frustration decreased
dramatically) when I am able to read the various rules / regulations and understand
how they work in regards to the task at hand.
Knowledgeable, competent and sincere
bureaucrats are a pleasure to deal with........it’s too bad that they
seem to be so very rare. In my opinion,
there are far too many bureaucrats who do not know their job and the rules /
regulations they deal with well enough.
In almost every case, these people can be dealt with by clubbing them
over the head with their own rules / regulations. Therein lies my problem with the student
loans system over the years; they operate like some secret society who closely
guard their arcane tomes and all information they hold from the prying eyes of
the great unwashed masses.
I agree that many questions remain about the new RAP. Hopefully those answers will come sooner
rather than later. And since we’re
talking about a government program, it’s even possible that some of the
information released so far will change.
The main reason why some information is released early is so that
feedback can be evaluated and changes made if necessary. Like it or not, that is a reality of the
political arena where these things are formulated.
Do I trust the government?
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. If they make extravagant and unrealistic
promises like a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and a pony for
every child, of course I don’t trust them.
Do I trust that they will do exactly as they say?.......again, no. Governments tend to be responsive only to
significant public pressure, but even then, change can be slow. I am under no illusion that the new RAP will
be perfect or the greatest thing since sliced bread. But I maintain my position that based on what
information is available so far, it is better than the current system.
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madmaple
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Posted: 04/April/2009 at 4:32pm |
mark,
Respectfully, Mad maple sounds like a HRSDC employee defending their
department. |
<sigh> The classic shoot the messenger approach,
rather than address the substance of the message you disagree with ........
BUT ALL BORROWERS WILL TRANSITION. |
Obviously
I’m missing something.......why is that a problem?
IR
and DDR are being scrapped and people have no idea whats replacing it.
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Sure they do......the new RAP. They may not know the specifics as it applies
to their individual situation, but the general intent and direction of the
program can be determined based on the information released so far.
If you had been around when we did the online
petition and read the signatures... you'd know what I mean about the
problems. Even SUICIDES due to student loans. |
I’m aware of many problems with the current system. Just because I wasn’t a member of this site
years ago doesn’t mean that I am naive or uninformed.
I created this site because I wanted change. |
And for that I commend you.
If you continue to be less than enthused with the new RAP as details
emerge, then please continue to advocate for change and explain what the
problems are.
On the front of the main page there is a report I did
on student loans. Respectfully, you should read it
before posting again. |
What makes you think that I haven’t read it????
Thousands of people have been defaulted by
mistake. They are ineligible for IR and DDR. HRSDC has done NOTHING to
resolve these problems.
In 2003 there was a higher default rate cause the automatic
payment system was broken. No one was notified. I had people trying to make
payments on this site but the money would never come out of their account.
HRSDC did nothing... defaulted them and denied them IR and DDR.
These are just a few of the items. I remember calling HRSDC
a few years ago and the senior advisor didnt even know the rules about
bankruptcy... and another senior advisor wasnt even aware that CIBC had handed
their loans over to Edulinx. I WAS INFORMING THEM OF THIS..... and this person
was a senior policy person! |
You are simply reiterating some of the many problems with
the current system. How is that relevant
to whether or not the RAP is better or worse than the current system?
I've also intervened in two
suicide cases and have heard of a third where a person was harassed so
badly.... and did commit suicide. |
By intervening you have made a
difference, which is an accomplishment to be proud of. In no way do I mean to diminish the pain and
suffering of those that even consider suicide in passing ........ but again I
ask how this is relevant to the RAP?
So MadMaple.... read up all
the literature and then we can have a debate. |
I am not entrenched in my
position. I remain open to the
possibility that I have misinterpreted the available information or missed
something completely. Other opinions are
welcome and encouraged.
HRSDC's
mis-management of the student loan program has not exactly instilled confidence
in the borrowers. |
True enough. However, that shouldn’t be the primary basis
on which you evaluate the new program.......otherwise you will be forever
cynical, which is not a good way to live.
Either you are really naive
or an HRSDC employee. |
<double sigh> You are free
to think whatever you want even if it adds nothing to a meaningful or useful
discussion .......maybe I’m both! <insert evil, diabolical laugh here>
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old hippy
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Posted: 05/April/2009 at 5:16am |
Madmaple,
(I haven't mastered that quote function that you're so good at, but..)
You say: "In dealing with the loans for my spouse and myself, I have encountered more bureaucratic incompetence, insensitivity, and downright stupidity than I ever wanted to experience in my lifetime."
Interesting that you've only just now popped up on this site to defend the new RAP program.
You say "I agree that many questions remain about the new RAP. Hopefully those answers will come sooner rather than later. And since we’re talking about a government program, it’s even possible that some of the information released so far will change."
Right. That sounds a little vague. In response to public pressure they had to come up with something in a hurry. Was it an election year? Not to worry though, Mark and this site will be here to deal with the fallout.
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Posted: 05/April/2009 at 6:53am |
Its all relevant.... because the organization that created the current mess is the same organization creating the new system.
So my message to the government is this: We need the details. I sent an email last week asking when the details would be released. No reply so far.
As for shooting the messenger. My apologies. I came on too strong. I dont want to remain cynical, but a bit of cynicism is warranted. I have hope, but not much confidence. The people at HRSDC dont usually think things through...
And to quote you: "herein lies my problem with the student loans system over the years; they operate like some secret society who closely guard their arcane tomes and all information they hold from the prying eyes of the great unwashed masses. "
Thats one of the reasons why I have little confidence.
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Administrator Mark OMeara Author of Let Go and Heal: Recovery from Emotional Pain https://LaughSingWrite.com - http://bit.ly/heal2024
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