This website is a testimony to the problems Canadian Student Loan borrowers experienced from approximately 1996 to 2008 and until their loans were paid off.

The privatization of the Student Loans system by the Chretien and Martin Liberal governments broke the system and defaulted thousands of borrowers who were trying to pay their loans. There were even stories of suicide due to the harassment of borrowers.

Read the report that I prepared back in 2007 here. Canada Student Loans-The Need for Change Fortunately the new Conservative government at the time revamped the program and fixed the system for new borrowers, but borrowers under the previous program were left with ruined credit and continued harassment from debt collectors.

I call on the Canadian Government to apologize to the borrowers affected by this fiasco and make amends.

Unfortunately the Liberal government is again clobbering the Education system with their upcoming changes to International Student Visas. Yes, there's a problem, but instead of a well thought out plan, they have pulled the emergency brake on the train causing a derailment. This has introduced unprecedented instability for both private and public education institutions who serve both international and local students.

Universities can't plan. I've heard of courses being cut because the government has no process in place for universities to send the newly required acceptance letters to the government.

This means that students who have been accepted can not attend courses that start in the summer 2024 semester. With cut sections, current Canadian students will have trouble getting courses, and may have to switch to part-time which changes their enrollment status and might trigger repayment of their loans or ineligibility for funding. I've seen this before. It wreaks havoc on the student loan borrowers.

Again, the Liberal government has messed up the education environment. Will the new system needed in a rush for the acceptance letters be the new Arrivecan scandal?

I call on the government to implement a slower phased in approach and delay the requirement of the acceptance letters until a process is in place to submit these letters.


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    Posted: 02/December/2009 at 7:13am
....having your student loans included in your previous bankruptcy? I figure I'll test the waters by going first. :)

Study end date--depends on who you ask....I graduated in 1997, but enrolled in 1999 (withdrawn, I believe I received some loans, though I honestly don't remember) and 2001 (withdrawn after one day because I could not get funding). Declared bankruptcy in November, 2001--discharged February, 2006 (slight clerical error with the amount outstanding to my trustee, all taken care of now).

I have been "gainfully" employed since 2005 and making payments on my CSL (which will be finally paid by the end of 2010), but no voluntary payments made on my OSL or bank risk or stick-it-to-em-they-don't-even-know-how-much-they-owe portions, despite my efforts to locate them (they keep moving from collection agency to collection agency). My refunds have been clawed back since 2005 and, until this year, 100% of the refund has gone to my CSL balance. This year, however, I noticed that only 33% is going to my CSL, the remaining 66% is going somewhere else (I can only assume my OSL, but is that currently being collected by the CRA?? So confusing.....). What constitutes "good faith" when attempting to make SL pay'ts?

So....is there a point to making the attempt to include everything outstanding in my previous bankruptcy? What constitutes "good faith" when attempting to make SL pay'ts? I make about $40000/yr now--decent enough money if you don't have SL debt, but not quite enough when trying to pay them off.

Iknowalotofstuff--this one's for you!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 12:54pm
There are three criteria for making an application under s. 178 1.1:  first ... you must have made an assignment in bankruptcy or a consumer proposal; two ... you must be discharged from bankruptcy or have a certificate of full performance of a consumer proposal and three ... five years must have elapsed from when you ceased to be a full or part time student for education funded by student loans.   From your comments, you have met this criteria so you can make the application.

The criteria for being granted hardship relief is to have acted in good faith with regards to the liabilities under the loans and to be experiencing and are likely to continue to experience financial difficulty regarding yur liabilities under the loans.

Good Faith is determined is somewhat subjective but can be determined according to case law by answering the following questions:
Did you use the loans for their intended purpose?
Did you attend school?  Graduate?
Did you receive a substantial economic benefit sufficient to repay the loans?
Dd you make reasonable efforts to pay the loans?  IF not, why?
Did you apply for interest relief or loan frorgiveness?
How soon after your graduated did you make your assignment / proposal?
Was the student loan debt a significant portion of the total debt discharged in bankruptcy?:
Are you still insolvent as a result of the loans not being discharged?
Would a second bankruptcy or proposal discharge your student loan debt?

Current financial difficulty can be determined by doing a Directive 11R calculation based on the Superintendent's Standards (used to calculate surplus for undischarged bankrupts) to determine if you have a present ability to pay and how much that is relative to the amount of student loan debt.  Directive 11R is based on net family income and family size.

The most difficult part of the test is a determination as to whether the current financial hardship will be ongoing.  The question is:  What is the likelihood on the balance of probability that the current ability to pay will increase to a significant level to allow for the repayment of the student loan debt.

"Gainfully" employed means many things to many people.  John, a single male, is gainfully employed on a full time basis at the local call center.  He is 26, single and earns $2000.00 per month net.  Seven years ago, he attended the TSB taking a computer course.  He has student loans totaling $12000.00.  He went bankrupt 4 years after getting out of school.  He is discharged. He has been out of school for 5 years  Based on the Directive 11R calculation, he has no ability to pay.  It is unlikely that his income will grow substantially in the future.  He has received no economic benefit form his education.  He made an application for hardship relief and it was granted with the written consent of the student loan creditors (Federal, Ontario). 

The filing fee for making the application if you did it yourself would be $10.00 for a summary administration bankruptcy or consumer proposal and $50.00 for an ordinary administration / D1 proposal.  S. 178 1.1, allows for the application to be made at "any time" after the initial criteria has been met (discharge ... 5 years).  If a person fails the first time, he / she can always go back as long as the circumstances have changed.

Here is what I need to know?
Family size?
Your net monthly family income?
Your net monthly income?

How Directive 11R works is a follows;
Determine net monthly family incoime
Determine applicants share of net family income
Subtract Superintendent's Standard for the above family size
Divide the difference by 2 and multiply by the applicant's share of income

For te example above:
Net Monthly Income:                           $2000.00
Superintendent's Standards D 11R:    $1870.00
Difference:     $  130.00
Divided by 2     $    65.00
Times 100%     $    65.00  (Ability to Pay)

The monthly interest on a student loan debt of $12000.00 at 6% is $60.00 per month.  If one was to amortize a $12000.00 student loan at $65.00 pr month, it would take about 45 years and repayment would total $30943.00.

John used the loans to pay tuition etc  He ent to school and graduated.  He did not get a substantial economic benefit from his education.  He paid as best he could and got a little interest relief.  He has remained insolvent due to these loans. He could go bankrupt again and the loans would be discharged.  The Registrar found that he had acted in good faith.   John could only pay $65,00 per month on his loans.  It was determined that 45 years constituted ongoing financoal hardship. 

John was granted an order rendering s. 178 1(g) inoperative in his bankruptcy.  In granting this order, the earlier discharge covered the student loans.  There are not 2 discharges ... one for the student loans arising from the application and a second covering all of the other debt.  The original discharge now covers John's student loans.  This is good because that is the date from which the reporting period at Equifax / TU is calculated from.   If you are granted relief, all debts relating to the bankruptcy come off th file at the same time.

In order to assess your situation,  answer my questions and I will let you know the chances you have in getting harship relief.
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And what is the impact on his credit rating?
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The impact on credit rating is the same as if the student loans had been included in the bankruptcy or proposal in the first place.  

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It is not retroactive.
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If the date of discharge of a bankruptcy is for example June 15, 2004 and the bankrupt obtains court relied for a student loan on October 15, 2009,  The credit bureau should report that the student loans were discharged effective June 15, 2004 because it was that discharge that discharged the debt not the order of October 15, 2009.  The order of 2009 merely states that the provisions of the act that prevented the debt from being discharged in 2004 no longer apply and that discharge now applies to the student loans.  If a CB has been misreporting this fact they should be sued.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 7:38am
Johnny:

Have you ever dealt with a former bankrupt who has obtained hardship relief?  Are you opposed to bankruptcy period?  Do you think it should not exist?  Do you think that a discharged bankrupt should not be entitled to hardship relief?  Do you think bankruptcy is the easy way out?  

You have not discussed the creditors role in the debt crisis?  You say the CCS's are nothing more than debt poolers paid for by the creditors.  How is your service any different except that the debtor rather than the creditor pays you to do an informal proposal.

You provide a service and so do I.  Let the consumer decide after being informed of their options.
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The credit bureau will report whatever they want and trying to get things removed is like hell.  Yeah, go sue them..... thats realisti.... NOT!   The discharge of the loans occurs in 2009 so the discharge will come off in 2015...... thats the way it apparently is working...  So doing the second discharge ruins your credit for another 6 years.   It would be more productive to push for change.

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Aaaaaaand back to me.....

Your questions:

Did you use the loans for their intended purpose?
Yes, I used them for school/living expenses....I only bought a *few* rounds of drinks for friends. ;)

Did you attend school?  Yup.

Graduate? Yup.

Did you receive a substantial economic benefit sufficient to repay the loans?
Big resounding NO. My current job has very little to do with my degree except in the "gestalt" sense. Someone who went to college (or a very astute high school grad) could be trained to do it, easily.

Dd you make reasonable efforts to pay the loans? 
Yes and no....

IF not, why?
When I graduated, I spent a year working to save money for my wedding--I made payments for two loans at CIBC directly, but as this is back over 10 years ago I don't have any proof whatsoever. No collecting entity (either federal or the various CA's that I have contacted) can (or will) provide me with any payment information prior to when I started repaying my CSL in 2005.

I got married and my husband was in school so I paid the bills. Then I (tried) to go back to school when he graduated (and was paying his own loans), but we divorced and I got the shaft (I got absolutely nothing because we had nothing--except he got to keep the house because his dad owned the lien). I moved to a different city but couldn't find a job (doing ANYTHING). I had a good sized non SL debt from my no-good ex who continued to buy things on my credit, things started to spiral--and the lovely folks at the National Student Loan Centre advised me that I should declare bankruptcy to free up my financial resources and focus exclusively on my loan. Stupid me, that's exactly what I did.

Did you apply for interest relief or loan frorgiveness?
Actually, I did--I was advised by the (same) people at the NSLC that I should apply for both of these programs BEFORE I declared bankruptcy because I wouldn't be eligible afterwards....I was accepted, then declined (both within about a week) once I set the bankruptcy in motion.

How soon after your graduated did you make your assignment / proposal?
Four years.

Was the student loan debt a significant portion of the total debt discharged in bankruptcy?
Well, no, because my SL wasn't discharged in my bankruptcy....if you're asking whether my SL debt was a significant portion of my total debt before I declared bankruptcy, then the answer is heeeeeelllllzzzzz yes. I'd estimate it was at least 70% of my total debt.

Are you still insolvent as a result of the loans not being discharged?
Explain "insolvent"....I don't have a hope in hell of saving enough money to buy a house or retire but I can get from paycheque to paycheque without skipping too many meals. I have a (used) car that my mother co-signed for that won't be paid off until next year....secured credit card at it's limit, but that fluctuates between half to mostly full....compared to 6 years ago when I was doing odd jobs for my landlady so she would evict me, I'd say I live like a frickin' KING at the moment. Am I going to get ahead? Unlikely. Am I going to retire? Unlikely. Way in the red with the student loans taken into account, refunds clawed back, standard stuff.

Would a second bankruptcy or proposal discharge your student loan debt?
Likely, yes....but I have worked too hard rebuilding my credit to do that again--I'm more likely to flee the country (dual citizen).

So....as it seems we have conflicting opinions btw IKALOS and Johnny, I'd say a good ol' debate on the case study at hand (mine) is called for.

Gentlemen......you have the floor.

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....that should say "odd jobs so she WOULDN'T evict me".
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Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Have you ever dealt with a former bankrupt who has obtained hardship relief? 
 
Look, I deal with post bankrupts and those who are opposed to it, and those who contemplate taking that route all because of fear. Here is something for you to consider. People who owe student loans, and are experiencing hardship with extenuating circumstances, and can demonstrate that, loans are put aside. I see this in my work day and travels. It is not limited to post bankrupts.
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Are you opposed to bankruptcy period?
   
 
I am opposed to it if it is an ill fitting prescription for an individual, especially if it is a response to a fear of one sort or another. Most individuals that I work with who have gone bankrupt actually voice that it was one of the worst decisions they ever made. Only a few felt it was required. Too many people have either been forced into bankruptcy that were not actually bankrupt. 
 
I am not opposed to it if it is an "effective" bankruptcy. In my experience, an effective bankruptcy is a case whereas there is long-term circumstances that prevent an individual from EVER repaying or working with the loan providers as an effort to rebuild a business relationship and seek compromise. That option and action in itself is something that people are not usually aware of. 
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Do you think it should not exist?
 
 
No. But I think it should be a VERY last option though.  
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Do you think that a discharged bankrupt should not be entitled to hardship relief? 
 
If there is hardship with such circumstances that warrants it, of course. Simply apply to the loan provider and demonstrate the hardship to warrant rermoval from recovery. If that doesn't work, then by all means.
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Do you think bankruptcy is the easy way out?
 
That would all depend on the individual and his/her intention, really. In some cases it is used as an escape method. In other cases, bankruptcy groups actually advise people to go that route as a means of avoiding having to pay. That is one of the primary reasons the changes were made to the BIA, section 178 in particular back in 1997/1998. A very small percentage of people actually frustrate the system. It is the system that is frustrating the economic sustainability and opportunistic growth potential in the consumer population. Bankruptcy is just another one of those necessary evils in the same capacity as are collection agencies. Or at least that it how it had been described to me by some execvutives embedded within the financial industry.   

Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

You say the CCS's are nothing more than debt poolers paid for by the creditors.  How is your service any different except that the debtor rather than the creditor pays you to do an informal proposal.
 
My services are COMPLETELY different than a collection agency. First of all, I don't work for the creditors. Second, creditors do not pay me to collect money from people. A non-profit or not-for-profit debt pooling organization is a collection agency. 
 
Informal proposals anyone can do. You have no clue what it is that I do, both within the consumer population for the purpose of helping it achieve wellness and sustainability. Nor do you have any clue about what we do within the structures of Corporate Canada, and the development and improvement of Canadian business.   

Now, I have answered your questions,. Maybe you can go back through other forums and answer mine, which you have respond to with nothing but questions really.
 
Johnny   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/December/2009 at 6:08pm
I have some additional questions:

Have you been out of school for five years.

What is your net monthly family income?
What is you share of that income?
What is your family size?

What province do you reside in?

What student loans do you have?
Federal??
Provincial??
Bank Risk??

What was your degree in?
What school did you attend?

I will help you make your application under s. 178 1.1 to see if your loans can be included in your earlier bankruptcy after you reply to these questions.


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Have you been out of school for five years.
Yes.  I graduated in 1997. I did take one course back in 2005, but I paid for it my self and it didn't go toward a degree/diploma/certificate.

What is your net monthly family income?
Net=$2150 approx

What is you share of that income?
After bills, etc? About $50 if I'm lucky.

What is your family size?
Just me and a whack load of cats.

What province do you reside in?
Hell....aka, Ontario.

What student loans do you have?
Federal?? Yes, currently repaying directly to the CRA. 1/3 of my refunds go to it's offset.
Provincial?? Yes, not repaying...no idea who holds it. I think 2/3 of my refunds are going to offset, but I'm not sure.
Bank Risk?? Yes, not repaying....no idea who holds it.

What was your degree in?
Sociology...aka "applied bartending"

What school did you attend?
University of Guelph

I will help you make your application under s. 178 1.1 to see if your loans can be included in your earlier bankruptcy after you reply to these questions....

I'm more than happy to be your guinea pig for the sake of the other folks on the board, but not at the expense of opening a can of worms if it won't work....the devil I know is so much better than the devil I don't, right?
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What part of Ontario do you live in ???

The directive 11 R calculation is as follows:
Net monthly income:                                  $2150.00
Superintendent's Guideline family of one:  $1870.00
Difference:                                                  $ 280.00
Divided by 2 = ability to pay:                      $ 140.00

How big are your student loans??   How long at the current interest rate would it take you to pay off your total student loans at $140.00

Amount of student loan at 6%
$10000.00   at payment of $140.00   Term 7.5 year already been out of school 12 years = 19.5 yrs
$15000.00   at payment of $140.00   Term 13 years already been out of school 12 years = 25 yrs.
$20000.00   at payment of $140.00   Term 20 years already been out of school 12 years = 32 yrs.

You can see how this goes,  If it is unlikely that your income will increase above $2150.00 in the near future, your student loans never be paid no matter how much you would like to pay them.
It is obvious that you are having current financial difficulty with respect to your liabilities under the loans.  If it is unlikely that your loan income will increase more than the cost of living, it is unlikely that your ability to pay will increase AND you can demonstrate ongoing financial difficulty with respect to your liabilities under the loans.

As to good faith, you have been making payments to the best of your ability based on your income. 

Have you ever worked in the field of sociology?? If yes, why aren't you still doing so?  If no, why not?

Which bank did you get your loan from??

You would serve HRSDC for Federal Loan
You would serve MTCU for Ontario Loan
You would serve the Bank for the Risk Loan (they do no oppose relief)

I will tell you exactly what you need if you give me your email address?

The cost of filing the application is $10.00.  The best result is an order rendering s, 178 1(g) inoperative in your bankruptcy rendering your student loans subject to your earlier discharge.  The worst result is that you are in the same situation you are in now.

Get me the requested information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Madmorrigan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/December/2009 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:


Get me the requested information.

Though I appreciate the work up to this point, you lost me with the last sentence.
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there is risk as it may appear on his credit bureau for the next six years....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/December/2009 at 8:18pm
The effective date of an order granted under s. 178 1.1 should be the original date of discharge not the date of the order.  The student loans should come off the report when the other debts included in the bankruptcy come off the file.  The s. 178 1.1 order is not a discharge.  It is an order rendering the section of the Act - s. 178 1(g) - that prevented the loans from being discharged inoperative and rendering them subject to the earlier discharge on that date.  There is only one discharge in a bankruptcy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolveStudentDebt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/December/2009 at 12:50am

That is not what the superintendant's office says. It should be exactly as how you described it though. I agree. However, it seems that there are plenty of obstacles that make your tasks quite cumbersome, more so for the individual in debt. A lot like I have to deal with. The insidious nature of certain mechanics and informal culture within the financial industry. The good thing is that I and others I work with specialize in certain areas whereas the bad culture and the insidiousness of the system is identified and taken out.

We should talk!  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/December/2009 at 12:55pm

What are interest only payments and how does it work?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SolveStudentDebt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15/December/2009 at 3:25am

Interest only payments simply means that you pay the interest accumulation on a month-to-month basis. THe principle remains untouched.

Johnny

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