Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Shaymus
Newbie
Joined: 15/February/2004
Points: 6
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Topic: Ten Year Rule Interpreter Posted: 15/February/2004 at 3:50am |
I am hoping that someone can help answer my question rearding the Ten Year Rule. It's seems I, like so many, have a hard time fully translating it. I attended university from 1990-1995. Like so many others, I could not afford my student loan payments and defaulted and my debt was sent to TCR(federal) and FCO(provincial). I join others in that I was getting those, Oh so common, unbelievably harassing phone calls from FCO who was carrying my provincial loan. Following eight years I was finally given a tip to call Consumer Affairs who reported them and thankfully have been helpful. I have set up a payment system with TCR and even though I have paid the $17,000 the complete amount that I owed, due to interest I am still owing $21,000. As this continues to be completely beyond my reach I was advised to declare bancruptcy next year , as it would be ten years in May.
Here is the kicker, I have been saving up my pennies for years to take a one year College program next year which starts in September of 2004. It's the last year that it is offered here so I must take it this coming year. I had always thought that the Ten Year Rule applies only to ten years since you took out a student loan but I am finding out that it refers to being a student. I feel completely blindsided. If I start school in September I will be eight months away from this ten years that I have been waiting for for SUCH a longtime! I'm sure like so many, I was going to take more education in an attempt to improve my chances of securing a better paying job so that I can have a life. Now it seems that the Canadian Government would rather that I remain the working poor.
So I was just wanting to know if this was indeed the case and if there was any way for me around it. Also, does anyone know if there is any word on wether the courts have yet made a decision about reducing it to five years or if you know if it's perhaps in the near future, like before the summer. I just can't imagine having to endure this for another ten years.
Thank-you for hearing me out and I hope that someone has the answers for me. I read this sight often and just can't believe how my story is not unique, unbelievable.
|
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
SolveStudentDebt
Moderator Group
Joined: 05/November/2003
Location: Canada
Points: 5996
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 8:52am |
Shaymus,
If you decide to attend studies in between the 10 year limitation period re bankruptcy, you will reset the clock. The act stipulates "10 years from the date you cease to be a student".
You have indicated that you finished school in 1995. The limitation period starts on the last day of you being a student, thus qualifying you to apply to have the student debt discharged after your filing in the year 2005. If you attend school in 2004, you will become an active student, thus resetting the limitations clock for another 10 years, unfortunately.
Johnny
|
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
|
|
Shaymus
Newbie
Joined: 15/February/2004
Points: 6
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 9:01am |
That's exactly what I've been realizing through researching this. I'm literally a month away from enrolling and it is a very good thing that I stumbled across this little hidden fact. Thanks very much for your reply, Johnny. In another message that I had later posted I had explained that I also took workshops for work in 1999, do you think those would be considered "studies"? Also, do you think that it would be any benefit to make my plea to my MP Alexa MacDonough?
|
|
sunny
Newbie
Joined: 26/January/2004
Points: 15
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 9:18am |
Hi guys
Sorry to butt in, but I am really concerned about how we are automatically assuming that the 10 year rule is OFFICIALLY interpreted this way!
Johnny, I appreciate your experience and knowledge, but can you please provide some PROOF (i.e. SOLID examples from cases where the courts--or whoever makes the actual decisions) that IN PRACTICE this rule is applied as you are suggesting? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, it's just that you keep saying to anyone who inquires about this rule that the clock DOES reset, yet you haven't provided any explanation for this...again, i apologize if you have actually provided proof in another post, if you could guide me towards it I would really appreciate it...however, I would think it would be awful if Shaymus decided NOT to go to school this fall and then discovered TOO LATE that in fact he could have successfully argued his case!!!
Again, i do not mean any disrespect, I am simply looking for more than just our interpretation of how the government interprets and applies their rules...
thanx
sunny
|
|
Shaymus
Newbie
Joined: 15/February/2004
Points: 6
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 9:24am |
Sunny,
Nothing would make me happier than if you were right. I am so close to enrolling and have made so many sacrifices to get there that I feel as though I am scrambling to find all the answers in a short amount of time. Some people have said that I should go to a trustee to find out the absolute answers but after hearing so many stories of mistakes I'm worried they may not know for sure either. I appreciate all incoming information. Thank-you.
Shaymus (girl)
|
|
sunny
Newbie
Joined: 26/January/2004
Points: 15
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 9:34am |
hey shaymus,
sorry bout the gender assumption...
and i have no idea if i am right, in fact, i tend to be a tad cynical and wouldn't be suprised in the least if johnny was completely correct in his interpretation
it's just that when making important decisions regarding our already shaky financial futures, it would be nice to have a bit more solid facts to go on...
i hope we can find out some answers to this 10-year thing, as i am sure we are not the only ones trying to make the right choices for our futures
good luck to you and to us all
sunny (girl too)
|
|
SolveStudentDebt
Moderator Group
Joined: 05/November/2003
Location: Canada
Points: 5996
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 9:40am |
sunny,
I would recommend that you contact the superintendant of bankruptcy's office. There you will find your proof. Call (613-941-1000). They will explain it to you.
I cannot give you an explanation of this because I didn't write the act. I just now what they mean in and on their terms. Call the superintendant's office. Then you will see not only proof, but relevant cases wheras this rule has affected people.
Johnny
|
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
|
|
sunny
Newbie
Joined: 26/January/2004
Points: 15
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 10:01am |
thanx Johnny,
i will call them this week
i guess the only thing left to do then is to fight...
Shaymus, I really would encourage you to write your MP, I plan to write mine as well....I have been thinking of contacting CFS (Canadian Federation of Students) and asking them if they have some sort of organized letter-writing campaign going on...and maybe they can give some guidance on what to write, and who in addition to our MP's to write...
I think it is ridiculous that you would have to forego going back to school because of this...and I think your MP in particular will agree...not sure what she can do about it, but it couldn't hurt to have her on your side
somethings gotta give!
and i think enough of us are directly affected by this to kick up a significant fuss!
will find out more this week and post what i find
sunny
|
|
jamjam
Newbie
Joined: 27/January/2004
Location: Canada
Points: 25
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15/February/2004 at 2:10pm |
My trustee told me that the clock would only reset if I were to get more student loans to go back to school, but since I was declaring bankruptcy and had a bad credit record, I wouldn't be able get more loans anyways. He said I could apply for my loans to be discharged 10 years after the last student loan was issued and that study period had ended. Any new student loans would be dischargeable 10 years from when the new study period ended.
I have no idea if he was right as I've been told many different things by many different people. Then again, my trustee told me that declaring bankruptcy would provide some leverage for me when I had to "negotiate" with the banks and govt. for repayment.
I would tend to think that Johnny is right and that the govt. tends to "interpret" ambiguous statements in the most mean-spirited and genuinely destructve way to students that it can.
And since it has the power to interpret its own rules, why would they ever interpret it in a way that makes sense or is of a benefit to students?
|
|
SolveStudentDebt
Moderator Group
Joined: 05/November/2003
Location: Canada
Points: 5996
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16/February/2004 at 1:53am |
If you were able to get more student financial assistance from the government, then your previous couldn't be in default status. Regardless, you were fed bad information byt he bankruptcy administrator.
Johnny
|
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
|
|
polyhymnia61
Member
Joined: 10/January/2003
Location: Netherlands
Points: 915
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16/February/2004 at 5:42am |
Jamjam...I don't know who your trustee is but if you're still in Thunder Bay I went to BDO Dunwoody on Barton. They are the most on the ball, I discovered...
...I also discovered a fellow classmate in the waiting room right after my first appointment...I think they deal with our crrrap alot...*laughs bitterly*
Here's something to think about, everybody...Should we be hijacked by the 10-year rule? I'm thinking about this myself, and maybe I have the luxury of not being hassled by collectors right now due to my consumer proposal, but should we put our lives on hold for this rule? (which could change, like every rule's changed in the past 20 years) I want to do a 4-week long TEFL certificate program but it's being held at a community college. Therefore, I suspect that it would count as "post-secondary" studies. If I take it, then my clock, due to run out in 2010, will run out in 2014...when I'm 53.
I don't have the answer...I'm just throwing out the question and soliciting opinions. What does everyone think?
|
Home is where you are allowed to prosper.
|
|
markomeara
Moderator Group
Site Founder
Joined: 30/May/2002
Location: Canada
Points: 186
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16/February/2004 at 7:35am |
Jam Jam
YOUR TRUSTEE IS WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!
if you go back to school the clock is reset, regardless of whether you take out any additional loans!
Mark
|
|
JenniePhotos
Newbie
Joined: 18/February/2004
Points: 2
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18/February/2004 at 7:28am |
Jam Jam,
I declared bankruptcy because of my student loans and was discharge in October 1998 . I attempted to repay the loan but when I was on maternity leave I was not able to make the full payments. I went to the bank to find out if I could renegotiate the repayments but they were not open to that. The person whom I was dealing with at the bank out and out told me that I had no options except to declare bankruptcy because the bank will never stop calling or sending notices and eventually they will just forward the account to a collection agency. So I did. I fell under the previous 2 years rule just before - a month before - they changed the rule to 10 years.
Even after my discharge in 1998 I received phone calls and letters from collection agencies for another four years. They tried very hard to argue that I did not fall under the 2 year rule but under the 10. I fought for two years to prove my point. Evidently they lost all the paper work over that two year period and I had to prove my case again!!!
My point - If you enter a program at any recognized post secondary education instittution you "reset" the clock and you will have to wait another 10 years from the date of you last official class.
If you have a spouse at the time of the bankruptcy it will effect you and your spouses chances of getting a mortgage or buying anything on credit jointly. Even if your trustee says it won't effect your spouse it will!!
Furthermore, they say that the bankruptcy will only be on record for a few years but this will effect your credit rating for a minimum of seven years sometimes 10.
At present I have yet to hear from them in the last year and a half but I think that is because I moved and they can't find a number though the only phone number (my mothers) for my name in the white pages has been receiving phone calls asking for me from strange people whom refuse to leave a name and message - IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!!
I don't even want to look at my credit report because I believe that I would have to start the process all over again even though it has been six years!!!!
|
|
blah
Senior Member
Joined: 18/June/2003
Location: Korea, South
Points: 101
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25/February/2004 at 6:55am |
polyhymnia61 wrote:
I want to do a 4-week long TEFL certificate program but it's being held at a community college. Therefore, I suspect that it would count as "post-secondary" studies. If I take it, then my clock, due to run out in 2010, will run out in 2014...when I'm 53. |
Poly, I don’t know when you’re schedules to take off to Holland, but it may be worthwhile to explore the possibility of taking your course out there. Having spent the past few years in Asia teaching English, I have found that it’s quite easy to find reputable TEFL courses all over the world – often cheaper than in Canada.
For various reasons this is not an option for everyone. But I know you have plans that include relocating, so I thought I’d at least offer my two cents. I'd offer more, but I'd have to take out a loan, and...
|
Friends don't let friends take Arts degrees
|
|
polyhymnia61
Member
Joined: 10/January/2003
Location: Netherlands
Points: 915
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25/February/2004 at 11:16am |
Thanks, Blah...That's an interesting option -- and probably the only option...
At this point, my question is probably moot, because of an impending strike by community college faculty in Ontario. And really, I've somewhat lost interest because I have to get a temp job in order to finance my move...
I will remember that for the future, though, because that is REALLY the teaching I want to do...
|
Home is where you are allowed to prosper.
|
|
Shaymus
Newbie
Joined: 15/February/2004
Points: 6
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19/March/2004 at 7:39am |
Hi Sunny,
I have been speaking with Alexa Mcdonough's office and apprently there is A LOT of confusion regarding this rule. Her office has thoroughly researched this area and have been trying to help hundreds of people sort this misconception out. It's actually even more unbelievable then I thought. Even after ten years and you declare bancruptcy your loan is only labelled uncollectable NOT discharged! So even if you wait the ten years your student loan is not released. They recommended that I just take the program next year and confirmed that that department is run by monkeys and is infamous throughout the government as being the most poorly run, a complete mess. I'm going to go ahead and go to school in the fall, even if it has been nine years and just hope that some sort of reasonable conclusion is found in the courts. I also received a confirmation of this by Joseph Volpe's office, federal Minister of Human Resources and a letter from the Prime Ministers office, apparently it is a pretty hot topic. Good luck and I hope that we soon find some sanity in this issue. Shaymus
|
|
Bang
Newbie
Joined: 11/May/2004
Points: 4
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/May/2004 at 11:16am |
Could someone tell me where I can find information about the ten-year
rule? Does this mean that my loan from 1992 could be uncollectable? I
was making payments on it (even though I couldn't afford it) then
defaulted when I became unemployed. They've just started to pester me
again after about 5-years or so (I sent a form to Equifax asking for a
personal credit report and somehow CBCL has started to call despite the
fact my phone number is unlisted and was never given to them).
Help!
|
|
Bang
Newbie
Joined: 11/May/2004
Points: 4
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 11/May/2004 at 12:36pm |
I went to the Government of Canada website and found this: "16.1 (1) Subject to this section and section 16.2, no action or
proceedings shall be taken to recover money owing under a student loan
more than six years after the day on which the money becomes due and
payable."
Does this mean that the collection agency is out of luck if I haven't paid for or contacted then in over 6 years?
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/s-22.7/24344.html
|
|
flurp
Newbie
Joined: 16/May/2004
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16/May/2004 at 6:19pm |
Bang,
Yes, six years is the limit. But, it's a clock that restarts depending on your actions. If you ever sent a letter to your collection agency that may be interpreted as an assumption of the debt. The clock would start over at that moment. It's a sliding 6 years.
|
|
flurp
Newbie
Joined: 16/May/2004
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16/May/2004 at 6:44pm |
10 Year Rule interpretation:
I've tried with some effort to locate a case dealing with this issue. I can't. Of course, I don't have access to professional databases, but anyone can use canlii.org.
My search term was "178(1) bankruptcy act student". I didn't finish going through the list of bankruptcy cases, cuz I'm lazy, but some of you may want to do that.
Here's the thing. 178(1)(g)(ii) of the Bankruptcy Act states "within ten years after the date on which the bankrupt ceased to be a full- or part-time student". Most folks on this list say, well that means when you stopped being a student, period. But scan your eyes up the section a bit. It makes blatant reference to government student loan statutes. A bankruptcy judge *could* rule that student means a person in school who is collecting government student loans. You have to interpret a statute in context, not merely pull out one section.
What I'm saying is, there is room for wiggling here, and it's big room and a good argument. No one--yer best lawyers included--knows for sure what this section means until its ruled on. And that includes the government, Alexa, etc.
Cross yer fingers and hope there is case law on our side.
|
|