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amandars2622 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amandars2622 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17/November/2009 at 7:37pm
I feel for you, as right now i'm enduring the horrible task of dealing with my student loans in court.
You should speak with a bankruptcy trustee. There is a new 7 year rule, that 7 years after you have finished school, you CAN declare bankruptcy on your student loans.
Also - speak with whom your loans are with - if its a collection agency they will usually negotiate and settle for 60% of the total loan amount. Or arrange a payment plan for $25.00 a month for the next 20 years - whatever you have to do. Believe me, you don't want to end up like me in court with them over this stressful stuff. 
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Iknowalotofstuff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/November/2009 at 8:41pm
If you went bankrupt and have been discharged ..and 
If your student loans were incurred before you went bankrupt ... and 
You have been out of school for five (5) years ... and 
You are a single mother with limited income   ....

You can apply to the bankruptcy court in your province to have the student loans included in that earlier bankruptcy under s. 178 1.1 of the BIA.

Your situation seems to be ideal for this type of relief.

If you have not resolved your problem ... you do not have to go bankrupt again.

Believe me ... there is a solution here for you.
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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 1:47pm

It really is not as easy as that. You have to remember you are dealing with the government. They have the power to make rules up as they go. Canada Revenue Agency via Justice CLAS can easily oppose. Same goes for the provinces. The intent of section 178 is quite simple. It prescribes the time frame when a student loan borrower can apply to have the loan(s) discharged. It does not mean that the bankrupt will be discharged. There are other variables here that you are not outlining in your pitch here.

Secondly, for most people, going through the motions of this process is taxing. If you look back, the majority of people who engaged in insolvency proceedings because of student loan debt did so out of trememdous fear. The cause of this fear was and still is the third-party collection agencies and their campaigns of threatening overtones and abusive treatment towards the indebted.
 
For those who have absolutely no ability to contribute financially, and are experiencing hardship with extenuating circumstances, then instead of going to the bench with a greater uncertainty -  demonstrate the case of hardhsip with extenuating circumstances and have the loan forgiven. That is one of the programs we run.
 
The solution for any student loan borrower in trouble is to make the best decision that will get you where you need to be without any further hardship. Of course, the borrower has to make it. 
 
Johnny    
 
 
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Iknowalotofstuff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/December/2009 at 8:21pm
The filing fee for an application in moist cases is $10.00.  How to file a motion is not difficult.  A positive result discharges the debt.  A negative result leaves the bankrupt in the same situation they were prior to the application.  Nothing ventured ...nothing gained.

I submit it is not a taxing process.  It can actually be done very quickly. 

We seem to have different perspectives on the same problems.

Are you familiar with the Ontario Association of Credit Counselling Services, a non profit organization providing credit counselling services through member agencies.  I ran one of their agencies for 20 years.   I know about the alternatives to bankruptcy (voluntary arrangements, OPD, proposals, etc.) .

Have you ever had a client go through the 178 1.1 process or a negative result from an application? You seem so negative against a simple process that could give an honest but unfortunate debtor a fresh start free of oppressive debt, provide for their financial rehabilitation and reintegration into society.  If you want people to consider all options, don't you have to consider them as well.

Here is the bottom line for me ... bankruptcy is not usually the first choice.  A debtor usually determines that they cannot make contractual payments.  They attempt to restructure the debt to meet their financial and ethical obligations but cannot.  They have exhausted their personal resources and assistance from others.  Many have researched options such as credit counselling and found no help there.  What choices are left ... a consumer proposal and bankruptcy.  Very few people I have had contact with view bankruptcy as option number one.   Seeing no other option and wishing to take control of their lives from their high interest creditors many who have raised the interest rate on the debt during periods of financial distress, they file an assignment or make a proposal.  Some of these debtors have to file or propose prior to the expiration of the 10 or 7 year period.  Their student loans will be revived when the trustee is discharged.  Always a pleasant prospect.  But they also know that if their financial situations have no significantly improved, there is a process to have the loans included in their earlier bankruptcy.

Look at the present situation... a bankrupt with surplus will be in bankruptcy for 21 months.  A debtor who cannot pay their loans has usually received some interest relief.  The trustee usually has to wait a minimum of 6 months to get their discharge.  Combining all of these time periods, by the time the trustee is discharged, the average bankrupt or consumer debtor has been our of school for five years and eligible for hardship relief.

You make is it sound like the federal and provincial governments routinely oppose relief when in effect the opposite is true.  As for bank risk loans,  I have never had a bank oppose relief especially the CIBC.   Registrars are independent of the government and often rule in favour of the debtor when applications are opposed.




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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 5:48am
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Are you familiar with the Ontario Association of Credit Counselling Services, a non profit organization providing credit counselling services through member agencies.  I ran one of their agencies for 20 years.   I know about the alternatives to bankruptcy (voluntary arrangements, OPD, proposals, etc.) .
 
Yes I am familiar with non profit collection agencies. Debt poolers, as they are otherwise known as. They get paid by the creditors and that is actually who they are really working for. They earn their commission as a collection agency, which they like to call their "fair share". They also kick you out of the debt pool if you miss payments, and leave you bloody and battered as you were when you first came in through the front door. Their primary function is to debt pool, which is actually the same model as bankrupty's Orderly Payment of Debts program. These groups are connected to the financial communities and if you look at their bank at their financial statements on line (which are accessible to the public online through Canada Revenue Agency), you will see that they are clearly profiting organizations raking in millions and millions. The board of their directors is qwuite interesting also to say the least. Bank reps, political personalities, even Veronica Maidman from Equifax Canada was or is still on board.  Businesses have to profit to survive, or at least cover costs and earn enough to live - which is the case I wouldn't have it any other way.  If you choose to argue this point, I can demonstrate to you if you prefer.
 
OPD and CP's are bankrupty. They are clearly described in the BIA as bankruptcy proceedings, and also by law. An alternative is something other than bankruptcy. Just a FYI.[/QUOTE]
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

Have you ever had a client go through the 178 1.1 process or a negative result from an application? You seem so negative against a simple process that could give an honest but unfortunate debtor a fresh start free of oppressive debt, provide for their financial rehabilitation and reintegration into society.  If you want people to consider all options, don't you have to consider them as well.
 
My clients who have participated in bankruptcy proceedings in the past choose not to revisit any of those proceedings. Besides, they earn their fresh start in more productive ways. I am not negative against the process, and if it works for someone who is experiencing hardship with extenuating circumstances, that is great! However, I totally disagree with you about your fresh start comment. A fresh start does not begin as debt free. A fresh start begins with an improved outlook, confidence, and awareness.

Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

You make is it sound like the federal and provincial governments routinely oppose relief when in effect the opposite is true.
 
 
Yeah? Well, you go talk with the guys and gals at CLAS and CRA and get their take on it.
 
Originally posted by Iknowalotofstuff Iknowalotofstuff wrote:

As for bank risk loans,  I have never had a bank oppose relief especially the CIBC.   Registrars are independent of the government and often rule in favour of the debtor when applications are opposed.
 
 
I was not talking about banks. I am also aware of your relationship with CIBC.
 
Registrars may be independant of the government, but they are required by law to make rulings in a lawful and unbiased manner. If there are registrars that are running around ruling in favor of bankrupts without proper assessment and due diligence, then they should be held accountable by the system. Remember, those that frustrate the system make it bad for those who are honest willing participants who want to do what is right. The registrars are required to ensure that the bankrupt is acting in good faith and so on. In cases other than hardship with extenuating circumstances, bankrupts approaching the bench to excercise section 178 (as a post-bakruptcy) are likely to be tagged with a conditional pending some form of contribution, only in the event that the bankrupt is assessed as being able to contribute.
 
Look, my take on bankruptcy is that it is not consumer friendly. It does one thing. It bankrupts you. It does not provide any social, socioeconomic, or vital counseling in preparation post-bankruptcy. It is a black and white program. 18th century.
 
Johnny  

 


Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Iknowalotofstuff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 10:59am
http://www.courts.ns.ca/decisions_recent/documents/2009nssc211.pdf

Why not read this case.  There are several others posted on the net.  This registrar acted with due diligence even with federal opposition and found that the applicant qualified for relief.

I only assist those who can meet the test.  

Why not find me one of your worst cases and lets see if we can't work together to get them hardship relief.
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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 3:04pm
Each case is unique. The Crown will always oppose, though. I know this, you see. It is part of my history. I am not opposed to working together at all. I will bein Toronto in January to begin the process of putting an office there. Perhaps we can meet and talk.
 
Johnny  
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Iknowalotofstuff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 8:01pm
I have assisted about 200 former bankrupts make s. 178 1.1 applications.  Less than 10% have been opposed.  In the vast majority of the cases relief is granted on consent.  I am as thorough in these applications as you appear to be with your involuntary proposals.  The government does not oppose every application.  This I know for a fact.

Did you read the case in the link I posted above?

I may send you a copy of a few orders that indicate that there is np government opposition to relief.

When their is no federal loan just the bank risk loan, there has never been an opposition.  CIBC, Soctiabank,  RBC  .... no opposition.  They never send anyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote administrator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/December/2009 at 10:36pm
This is turning into a dialogue between Johnny and Iknowalot.  The focus of this board is to help the initial posters, not an argument about theory.  This discussion or argument is going on in too many forums...
 
I knowalot... please email John and take this discussion off line unless it is answering a specific question posted here.
 
Thanks
Mark
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Mark O'Meara

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iknowalotofstuff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/December/2009 at 4:58am
OK
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