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    Posted: 06/April/2017 at 6:04pm
This post is a very important one for those who are in trouble with student loans and looking to buy homes. 


You know you have student loans in default. 
You make a move to settle the student loan. 
You apply for a mortgage while doing so. 

What is wrong with this picture? 
The Canadian Financial Wellness Group (CFWG)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/April/2017 at 6:15pm
With house prices rising 32% in the greater Toronto area, this may actually be a very effective way to clear a student loan.  However, its very very risky in these market conditions.  Buy house, watch prices rise 30%, sell house, pay off student loan.

The financial community wants you to pour all of your resources into paying off your debt, but this is often not the best thing to do.  If you're already in default and the defaulted loan is well aged, you may be better off exploiting your rebuilt credit, and building equity in one form or another.  A house can be a form of equity.  Over time, this will leave you in a position where you can borrow at low interest, creating a positive debt on your credit report, and clearing the past bad student loan.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/April/2017 at 6:28pm
The trouble with these damn student loans, once your in default, is that the derogatory entry remains visible on your credit report.  Every payment towards that bad debt, renews the entry on your credit report.  The result is an ugly collection and trade that denies your the ability to effectively rebuild your credit.  Therefore, you're stuck in a vicious cycle of bad debt, and high interest rates on everything, an inability to easily rent an apartment, and an inability to seek many higher level jobs.  At some point you need to actually break this cycle.  Fortunately, there is now a way rehabilitate your loans federally, and in some province.  This was NOT the case in the past.

Years ago, I told them to shove it.  Over time, I rebuilt my credit.  This allowed me to rebuild myself.  I was then in a position where I could borrow at lower interest to clear the provincial student loan.  Now, I am gradually building myself to the point where I can qualify for a mortgage.  However, there remains a statute barred debt.  Is it unethical for me to now buy a house?  I don't think so.  In fact, I think this process of building equity, and assets, is going to leave me in a position where I'll be eventually able to clear that statue barred debt.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/April/2017 at 7:11am
Applying for a mortgage and rebuilding one's life after a limitation issue whereas a student loan or any debt is statute barred is not a bad act or thing. enjoying the benefit and freedom provided by a limitation issue is a benefit and right to you. It is life, and of course, a hard pill to swallow for the financial community when they lose to it. 

Most people who are benefiting from a limitation issue deserve that benefit. A smaller percentage really don't, but the law is the law. 

This is a good example of of what screwing the system represents. If a person is able to pay the student loan in full, but tries to do something deceptive to simply save a buck, then that is equal to simply screwing the system. There is a group of people over the years who have pulled that nonsense with us, as in using our service to attempt to do those bad deeds, and when caught they get booted and rant online, even going as far as interfering with economic relations with malicious intent to defame and destroy us. People that go online to injure another and shame are a character and personality of their own deeds.    

As for your issue with limitations, you deserve the goodness it provides. I know your case, and although I had no hand in it, I am of the belief that you are one of the most deserving because of what they system put you through, along with the hardships that were spoken to deaf ears. You will always have a helping had from us if you ever need it. You know it! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/April/2017 at 11:14am
It's an interesting philosophical argument, Johnny.

Firstly, deceitful behaviour is ALWAYS wrong!!  No exception!

The important thing to realized here is that the institution ONLY functions legally ( sometimes, not ). It's only the individual who may or may not operate morally, whether or not the individual is a member of the institution.

Realizing that the institution doesn't give a damn about morality and only cares about the law and what they can give away with while bounded by the law, I strongly believe that an individual is within their right to treat the institution in exactly the same way the institution is treating them.

As a business, you have the flexibility to choose your clients, and can certainly choose to only deal with clients who are operating morally.

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I can see a case where a person would settle their student loan at the same time as applying for a mortgage.   What if I were the one with the flawless record and great income, and it was my wife with the defaulted student loan?  The bank has informed us that we can only qualify for the mortgage and include my wife's income if she settles her student loan?  So, what's wrong with her settling her student loan for perhaps a lower balance at the same time as applying for a mortgage?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/April/2017 at 11:26am
By the way, Johnny, thanks for your understanding about my case.  Everything is sleeping and quiet right now, and I want to leave it that way.  I'll certainly contact you if that changes, and I am definitely in a position where I can compensate you for the time and energy that you would put into my case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/April/2017 at 1:06pm
Royal, I have learned a valuable lesson from you. That is compensation enough! lol. You are a good person. 

As for picking, choosing, and undertaking cases YES, I have implement very strong assessment tools now. Some businesses could care less about who they do business with, as long as they get paid. CFWG is built on holism and a social model, and can be abused in hands of deceitful and those with bad intentions toward the system. The testimonials put out on this site are real and from real people. The online attacks, and egregious efforts to maim and destroy it are real too. No one is perfect. Nort is any business. But - when people go to great lengths to do harm, wow. That speaks volumes to the character and view of those people.  

I want to share this with you. One guy out of Toronto who started a bad blog set out to destroy me because I wouldn't help him screw the system. The guy pleaded poverty, had a wife and kid, needed to settle a bank student loan. Half way through the process, he drops the "I want to get a mortgage" card, and threatened me that if I didn't help him he would go online and do the slander. Of course. He owed 24,000 and I got him a settlement in the end for 10,000. Well below what he thought would fly. 

Get this - when I finalized everything for the guy he wrote to me an email saying "Look, I got all the credit I wanted to get now, what would be wrong with putting this off and not following through? I could pay this thing out in full if I really wanted to but what would be the implication if I walked?" I wrote him back and told him "you have your settlement, take it and we are done. You have the bank contact to whom you are to make the payment to. We are done."  

So guess what happens next. He never paid it thinking they would die off and leave a cease and desist in place. Almost 10 months later, I get a call from this guy saying "The bank is threatening to sue me, they want the whole amount." I told him "Man, you had the chance and you clearly blew it. All you can do is call them and hope they will still take the $10,000.00 I secured for you in writing." He threatened me again saying if I didn't help him get out of it he will go online, start a blog, and wreak havoc on me. 

This was in 2010. a blog was opened up by this guy in my name, and company, with a totally different version of events. He did so anonymously. 

Last year, I was watching The Dragon's Den and guess who showed up looking for money and investment to fund his new business, "Dub" something or another. The dragon's rejected him and said he was way too late on that business front. 

His file still sits on my office with all of the good work done for him. All the paperwork, and sealed up and approved appeal for compromise. It serves as a reminder what people can be like. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/April/2017 at 8:36am
I was trying to decide how to respond to your example, and than got busy with life and completely forgot about.  Sorry, because it deserved a reply.

There is no counter-argument to this example.  This is crappy behaviour, no doubt about it.  It also shows ignorance about how the system works.  Ignoring a settlement with the bank that he owed money to, in this case, was very clearly wrong.  Furthermore, it was very stupid to believe that this wouldn't come back to bite him. 

I've made a very concerted effort to ensure that the system can't come back to bite me.  This is why I paid off the provincial portion of the loan which is limitless.  There is little that they can do to me unless we discover that they somehow managed to revive the statute barred debt ( or it was never barred ).  Of course, it continues to bug me, and I always have it at the back of my mind.  I also pay for it by watching my credit reports continuously to ensure there are no collections or derrogatories suddenly appearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/April/2017 at 3:51pm
The danger any company faces when dealing with people who owe money is that the ones who have horrible intentions are the ones who go online and say horrible things about those who stand up to them, and cease doing business with them because of it. There are MANY cases like this it is pure evil behavior. 

I had an interesting conversation with a bank collection management figure about limitation issues. It is amazing to read the junk he wrote about those who want to exercise their right to the benefit. It kind of creeped me out. In all seriousness. How can people who work for a bank who think so badly of customers actually be productive in that environment? it is a cultural catastrophe.  

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/April/2017 at 6:05pm
There is another forum where I discussed my student loan issues.  On the forum is a rather popular member that deals with car loans at one of the major banks.  I was brutally attacked by that individual. The reality is that many of these individuals take these jobs because it puts them in a position of power. They enjoy belittling and ridiculing the lowly indebted. 

This banker that you're describing reflects my experience as well dealing with the institution, and this is what I was mentioning in an earlier post.  After dealing with a number of these individuals who represent the institution, an institution which only functions legally, and not morally, it becomes rather easy to say: F it! and walk away. 

I would suggest that this is a major contributing factor to the student loan defaults.  Its not that students don't want to pay; they simply reach a point where dealing with the crap is too much stress.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/April/2017 at 7:57pm
Man, the attacks on the public by the collection industry, and the punishing of people by the banks and their internal (and heavily) biased staff, it's crazy.  We re in a very deep lawsuit against DH LTD, who is also the national student loan service center. 

Most students want to pay, you are right. There is a number of them that don't want to, and that is where we get burnt, and not just the system. But you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph above. Truly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/April/2017 at 3:24am
Perhaps, you've read in the recent media about the questionable behaviour from TD Bank.

Yes, there are individuals who burn the institution, however I would suggest to you that the industry as a whole has a very bad reputation which encourages this behaviour.  Many people have the attitude that (I) should stick it to them before they stick it to me.  If you already have the attitude that you're dealing with a corrupt institution, walking away without paying your debt to that institution becomes rather easy for many.

In other words, I don't think the banks or DH or any other connected institution can argue that they have only become this way with students because of a few bad weeds who walked away from their debt. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/April/2017 at 3:35am
"Many people have the attitude that (I) should stick it to them before they stick it to me. "

We as a society support this attitude as we war with a number of countries around the world.  We call it a pre-emptive strike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20/April/2017 at 6:19am
Yes, agree 100%. 

The problem with the financial community is not only cultural. It is their inability to effectively work with people in certain conditions and environments. 

When people feel defenseless, helpless, and overwhelmed by what they see as that dysfunctional and neurotic 400lb gorilla coming after them, it is either run - or find a weapon and defend. 

There are instances I have seen in cases dating way back to 2003 whereas people are so infuriated that the justice they sought was more a product of vengeance. This is what the system created, not the student loan borrower population. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/April/2017 at 8:37am
The desire for vengeance is frankly rather justified.  I know you're trying to work together to find cooperation between students and the system, but in may cases the errors in the system have cost people VASTLY more than the total amount of money borrowed.

My LOW-ball estimate is that my lost income is approximately 8 years at an average loss off 50K/per year  ($400K).  The total amount borrowed was approximately 40K.  I am only now beginning to benefit from my education.  The benefit I receive now is not a direct benefit.  I am not working in my intended field, but I certainly did pick up skills in my education which is now FINALLY beginning to benefit me.

The grand irony in all of this is that I began this process with great respect for the financial community. This was my intended career.  I wanted to get a position within the banking system as investment analyst. The issue with my student loans and resulting bad credit destroyed my ability to satisfy the security clearance requirements for any related position in either the government or the banking system.

Now, I can't blame the system entirely.  At the time, I was going through considerable issues in my life, and I was very very low on patience.  Unfortunately, the student loan system is set up in such way that not only must you have a normal patience level, but rather you must have extremely high patience.  In other words, I guess, I have to accept my part in this and admit that I gave up too quickly as a result of my own personal limits in patience.

So how do we quantify this?  How much of those lost wages is my responsibility, and how much is a fault of the system.  Can I reasonably argue that the system's share in my lost wages is considerably greater than the total amount borrowed?  Is it vengeance to declare a desire to collect from the system my lost wages?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/April/2017 at 9:51am
I don't see you as seeking vengeance. I see you as seeking justice for unjust treatment and entrapment that the system has imposed on you. 

The system only cares about the system, and money. Not what you lose because of it - but what it loses because of internal and external factors. 

The Canada student loan system from the time in which the banks were brought into it in 90, should have been a clear indicator that something bad is going to happen. The Canada student loans program became a business for profit, and that is what broke it. Banks realized that there is more loss than gain. So, what does a bank do when it is neck deep in an investment that is a guaranteed loss? 

Now, that the banks are out, the government simply runs the CSLP as business as usual. My concern is how the heck can the federal government pay hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars to the NSLSC owned by the private company DH Ltd without even being looked at closely by the federal authority. They are certainly appreciative that the Canadian media is asleep, that is for certain.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/April/2017 at 1:16pm
... but this is where the idea of vengeance comes from.  I know you don't approve of it, but ...

I wish you saw my life 8 years ago when I was at my worst.  These student loans, and the damage they cause, often not due to the errors of the student, literally destroy lives.  When you are angry, and at the bottom, there is so much anger, resentment and desperation.

Yes, how does DH get away with it?  I can't answer that.  However, the Canadian government is very quick to pick up those defaulted loans, for collection, without due evaluation.  Therefore, I have very little sympathy for the system and a public which largely would rather not know any better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Royal-NCO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21/April/2017 at 1:51pm
By the way, you don't necessarily feel that sense of vengeance at the time.  You feel it a few years later when you look back at what happened with a real understanding.  I know now the real reason why Royal Bank "lost" my documents and wiped their hands of the problem.
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