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banana_19 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banana_19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28/February/2008 at 10:30pm
If I HAD A 40,000 SYDENT LOAN WHEN I FINISHED IN 2001, AND IT THEN WENT TO COLECTION WILL IT BE MULTIPLYING AND WHAT WOULD AN ESTIMATE OF WHAT I NEED TO PAY BACK BE AT THIS TIME. IF I SET UP INSTALLMENTS TO PAY IT OFF ARE THEY REASONABLE WITH THE AMOUNTS IF I WORK WITH THE COLLECTION AGENCY OR SHOULD I TRY AND START PAYING THE GOVERNMENT. HOW DOES THAT WORK. I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO MAKE ANY PAYMENTS TILL NOW AND WOULD LIKE TO START BUT DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A PAYEMTN OF 500 DOLLARS FOR 40 YEARS
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Stevie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17/June/2008 at 5:22pm
So its sounds like no one had any solutions, just common problems. I have the same dilemma but actually looking for some answers.

I am a former Canadian (now american). Had a student loan with RBC, ran in to some financial difficulties about 2 years ago. RBC would not work with me at all, so I didnt pay my loan for 6 months. After that time frame things got back on track and I wanted to continue to repay the loan. Collections said I would need to repay the 6 months that were outstanding before I can get back on track. I didnt have that kind of money laying around and again try to work something our with collections...no luck...

So here we are (1-2 years later), just received a letter stating that they are now going to seek local attorney's (here in the US in my home state) to come after me unless I contact them ASAP. The letter went on to say that they can seek to seize property, garnish wages, etc...Really??? I only owe about $10K. Are they really going to spend thousands of dollars on attorney's and MAYBE collect? This doesnt seem like a sound fiscal policy on behalf of RBC.

Does anyone actually have any answers out there? How far can RBC reach across international lines?

Thanks in advanced.




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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 5:06am
They can reach as far as the law will allow them to go. All they have to do is find an attorney in the USA who would represent them. In the USA, there are more lawyers than Cab Drivers (in fact, some of those cab drivers are MDs and PhDs come to think of it). The government of Canada proceeds against people in the USA for Canada student loan debt. It does happen. In your case, if they do - how will it affect you in the USA, and what are the risks other than traditional proceedings to secure the matter. There is that big "what if". The question "can they" should not be an issue. The only way to know if they can is for you to go in and speak to the individuals you owe and ask them. Of course, they will say "yes, the can". You are no further ahead. If I were involved, I would be interveneing and giving them no reason to proceed further, and that is a solution. You follow? If this is something that you could do for yourself, you wouldn't have to go out and look. Unfortunately, borrowers need professional help a lot of the time because the system is not borrower friendly or sensitive.
 
There are a lot of barriers that obstruct the paths of student loan borrowers in Canada. One of these barriers is that your voice is not really being heard. If you raise an objection to a certain treatment or issue pertaining to the recovery process, they are simply going to play you off. You are the one who owes the money. If creditors, moneylenders, collection agencies were to adhere or bow down to the objections of their debtors, they would not recover losses. For instance, if you are being sued, you call the creditor and tell them to stop the action because you find it uncomfortable and stressful. They will simply continue because they know you are responding to it. Your reactive output is fear or anxiety when you tell them that you are stressed out about it. This is actually what they want. However, if you have the right professional guide and assistance, you will find a solution. We do this for people every day, but it is a business.  
 
Solutions come with professional help. Things like this cannot be address and solved on a public web forum. Unless you want to spend 10 hours per day explaining all different parts of your history and life. You see, people "describe" their experiences. However, there are things that people may not be aware of that need be examined, and that cannot be done here. Many people come here looking for solutions to student debt problems. I can solve a lot of problems for people, but not on a forum. I offer some of my time to help in any way I can to people who are in need of general - but hidden information.  A lot of the help people require is more than just an answer or two - and VERY extensive and time consuming.
 
If you want some professional help, let me know. Otherwise, keep looking around and see what you can dig up.
 
Here is some advice that you should not  follow should you ever happen to be told:
 
1) Go bankrupt
2) Become a gopher and go underground
3) Stop answering your phone
4) Always look over your shoulder  
 
This is some of the advice that I am told  that has been given to troubled student loan borrowers from various groups (credit counseling orgs, law groups, etc. - even bankruptcy firms). This is certainly not productive and no way to live. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Johnny
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 6:09am
Well I can tell you that they WILL come after you.
 
I have been in litigation with HRDC for over two years now, still in the discovery phase, and the AG is reluctant to answer my interrogatories, and the Judge here has issued a warning that either they answer or the action will be stricken wo/ prejudice.  I have, ofr the most part delt with this pro se, and only recently hired a lawyer.
 
I owed about $10K myself, but the AG has a major problem.  They are relying on computer print outs showing I made payments in 2002 for small amounts.  Problem is that they do not have, or at least claim they do not have the original source documents for those payments, and thus pursuant to CPLR the print uts are hearsay and do not fall under the business exception rule, unless they can either produce the documents, or authenticate the evidence.  They could probably authenticate the evidence, but I "happen" to be a computer systems integrator, and I build design and implement large data centers for a living; meaning that I know everything there is to know about how data gets from point A to point B, and ANY "expert" they put on the stand, I will be able to tear apart, coz, they know, like I know that computer systems are NOT perfect.
 
The HRDC uses a system called Departmental Accounts Receivable System (DARS) (CFO)
 
Now this is interesting?  As I look to find the information for you I find that it has been changed.  It used to say that all source documents must be retained for 10 years, including checks, payments, etc, now it says 6 years and 3 years for electronic information.  Hmmm..  I wonder if this was done as a result of my litigation?
 
See below:
 
Departmental Accounts Receivable System (DARS) (CFO)
Description:
This bank is a computerized record of accounts receivable other than Old Age Security. Each record contains the name, address, age, gender, SIN, and preferred language of the debtor along with information relating to the reason for the amount and the repayment method.
Class of Individuals:
All individuals, or organizations who have an EI and/or Unemployment Insurance overpayment and /or penalty; a Training Allowance Groundfish Strategy, Canada Pension Plan, Operation & Maintenance, Grant and Contribution and/or Training program overpayment; and/or a defaulted student loan or Labour program receivables and federal employees for job related employment (including the accrued interest, where applicable) under an HRSDC or Service Canada program with the exception of OAS.
Purpose:
To facilitate the management and collection of accounts receivable in compliance with TB directives, Public Accounts of Canada and with various directives from the Auditor General of Canada and the Receiver General for Canada.
Consistent Uses:
To report accounts receivable in the Public Accounts of Canada. DARS is linked to PWGSC for certain key elements in order to deposit payments received from clients to DARS and to review the copied image related to cheques and statement of accounts in PWGSC database with regards to recovery activities. It is matched with the Report on Hirings (HRSDC PPU 210), the individual income tax return (RCT PPU 005), the Employment Insurance Databank (EID) (HRSDC PPU 501), Canada Student Loans (Full Time & Part Time) - Computer Loans Master File (HRSDC PPU 030), and Canada Pension Plan - Retirement Disability, Survivors and Death Benefits (individual) (HRSDC PPU 146) to trace the debtors and recover the account receivable. It may also be provided to private sector research companies for planning statistics, research and evaluations. Information may also be made available to the Department of Justice and/or Provincial Courts for the recovery of the EI Court Fines.
Retention and Disposal Standards:
Paper records are kept for 6 years; records on electronic files are retained for 3 years after full recovery.
RDA Number:
99/004
Related PR#:
HRSDC PPCA 227
TBS Registration:
005817
Bank Number:
HRSDC PPU 164
 
 
So it appears as though HRDC is getting cute here?
 
Either way, NY State law protects me from changes made "after" the fact, and that may cause prejudice to the defendant.  Seems I have another tool to bat them over the head with.
 
It's also important to realize that The AG or CSL does not enjoy any priviledge when they become subrogated to a loan they inheret from the Bank.  They do not have that executive advantage and must litigate with the same rules of civil procedure and evidence that any other private individual would have, including the "bank"..
 
Anyway, my loan is time barred, and the only way they could sue and win is to "prove" that I made those payments, and if I can get the print screen shots supressed as hearsay, they have nothing and must move on.
 
Know your rights, find the loopholes in their records management and either decide you have a case, or if you don't then you will need to pay.  However, most states in the US will not allow them to take your home.  That's a scare tactic, but they can garnish up to 15% of your wages depending on your income and expenditures.  My advice is if you can pay, then pay, call them to set up a payment schedule and pay it back, if however you were screwed around with like I was (It was a mess and a very long story) hen fight them.
 
 
Good luck!
 
 
Hic-
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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 7:57am
Who handled the litigation process in your case down there. Was it Rosenburg out of California who delegated out to a firm in NY?
 
I know of a lot of cases whereas these proceedings have been taken against people in the USA for student loans.
 
You said: "It's also important to realize that The AG or CSL does not enjoy any priviledge when they become subrogated to a loan they inheret from the Bank. "
 
Actually they do - especially with the CSL2's (put-backs). They make a good profit. Remember, Canada Revenue Agency is allowed to profit. They are also the ones in charge of the recoveries now (CRA Non-Tax Directorate).
 
DARS is the mainframe database. It houses pretty much everything. It is a nightmare to work with though.
 
You said: "if I can get the print screen shots supressed as hearsay, they have nothing and must move on."
 
Everything is scanned in at that level these days. If they are claiming you made a payment, but have no evidence other than "well, we said you made a payment, so you did make a payment"; that is nothing but hearsay. They have to prove that a payment was made.
 
Proof means:
 
Copy of a paid Receipt issued to the borrower
Type of payment received (cash, cheque, money order)
If cash was paid at a location, a statement of payment is issued and recorded as being issued by the clerk or commissionaire.
Scan of a cheque or money order would be taken, or serial # of money order taken.
 
There are loads of ways to prove payments were made. You can call Privacy and issue a request for your CSL hard file. Any payments received would show on the blotters in the accounting section of the hard file. If you request your file, they will send it to you in a huge box. There will likely be thousands of pages to flip through. You will certainly find the blotters without incident though. They are all there.
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 8:40am
Thanks Johnny, I spoke to a long time ago and your advice at that time was helpful.
 
To your points:
 
Rosenburg is not the attorney for the AG.  I am reluctant to broadcast who it is though as litigation is still pending.  I can tell you it is a NY State firm, actually a collection attorney.
 
"Actually they do - especially with the CSL2's (put-backs). They make a good profit. Remember, Canada Revenue Agency is allowed to profit. They are also the ones in charge of the recoveries now (CRA Non-Tax Directorate). "
 
Actually, no they do not enjoy priviledge.  They have all of the same rights AND responsibilities as the bank would have had.  Put-backs are loans that the CSL buys back from the "Shared-Risk" portion, that as a general rule they are not necessarily obligated too, however there is a provision in the regulations that allows the bank to sell up to 3% of their oldest debt in collection to the CSL for 5% of it's value; meaning that CSL pays 0.05c on the dollar.  Not a bad scheme if your the government of Canada.  However, they are still subrogated to the rights and responsibilities that the bank would have had.   When I say "priviledge", I mean that the Giv of Canada can't deny discovery requests based on sensitive subject matter, that they would normally enjoy, and do enjoy otherwise.  In other words, the Gov of Canada can't say: "We won't let you inspect our computer database because of priviledge".  They also can not claim priviledge for the "print-screens".  In current Canadian law, the Giv of Canada could enter into evidence ANY official government document and NOT need to prove it's prima facie value.  It would be considered true without scrutiny; however, since they have limited rights by being subrogated, they do not enjoy this luxury.  They are subject to the same rules of evidence and discovery as any other private entity.
 
"DARS is the mainframe database. It houses pretty much everything. It is a nightmare to work with though. "
 
Yes I know.. Smile
 
"There are loads of ways to prove payments were made. You can call Privacy and issue a request for your CSL hard file."
 
They've already claimed they do not have the source documents, so it all hinges on how an American judge will view the reliability of the print-screens, and the manner in which the documentation was performed.  Like I said, I know the DARS system well; it is used by a lot of colleges and universities here in the US, and was actually develped here.  I know how clumsy it is, and I can pick it to pieces easily.
 
If they can't produce the source documents, then they will have to (By law) provide an expert witness to testify (under cross) that the information is reliable.  I doubt they can find someone that is "expert" enough for cross exaimination.  Besides, it won't take much to cast resonable doubt (Even though this is not the burden level for this kind of evidence) on the "efficiency" of the way the CSL has "maintained" the integrity of the Student loans progam with respect to the transfering of information.  It's a boondoggle for them, and is their Achilles heel if pressed.
 
Other than my case against them for hearsay, even if I lose that fight (doubtful), I've got them other ways.  Specifically the Government of Canada's "other" statutes and regulations concerning the exchange of money.  Bill's of Exhange laws require invoicing of debt, Debt consolidation was a mess, interest relief was a mess, they're screwed on so many levels, that at the very least "apportionment" will be applied as an affirmative defense, which I did raise in my answer to them.  Contributory Negligence is another..
 
The key, if you're being threatend is to do research, and lots of it.  I only hired a lawyer to help with the procedural things.  I do all the leg work, I, e. case law research, drafting of motions, and pleadings, all he does is send them to the plaintiff's ..  It's cheaper this way and going Pro Se is not as bad as most people think.  I have spent hours upon hours fighting this though, so time investment is something to consider, and if your loan is only a few thousand then I would suggest paying it.  Mine was less than $10K but it made me mad at how they were seemingly unapologetic about any culpability with regard to the way they handled my loan.  They messed it up, and so did the bank from day one, and for me, even though I have the money to pay them back; it comes down to a matter of principle.  Also, this site was also very informative to me, when i first started looking, and I want to give something back to the community by the lessons I learn in this litigation process.  Hoepfuly, win or lose, I can be of some help to someone out there facing the same crap from the CSL program.
 
 
Hic-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 9:51am
I misunderstood what you meant by privilege. I was thinking monetary. Embarrassed It is going to cost the government of Canada (as well as the tax payer) an awful lot of quid should they proceed any further against you. You want to know what is even more scary? The Justice Department will defend even if it knows that it is in the wrong. Remeber, they coined the term, "but we are acting in good faith".
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 10:05am
No worries Johnny, thanks!
 
Once the case is over I plan to post the "redacted" (Redacted for privacy to me) versions of all the pleadings and decision.  Anything that can be helpful to someone going through the same thing.
 
 
Hic-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 10:16am
Yes I know, it's crazy.. "Bigger" fish to fry comes to mind and there is a danger of setting precedent here in the US should they proceed and lose.  Every Lawyer friend I have shown this too has said that they're nuts for continuing the action.  (I do business with a lot of law firms).  I suspect that in reality they know this already since it took a letter from the presiding judge to compel the interrogatories.  They've been sitting on them for over 6 months now. LOL
 
I could have compelled them much sooner, actually within 30 days of requesting them, but my lawyer said, "screw it, let them take forever if they want, it can only harm them in the eyes of the judge"..  This is true from my experience since one thing that get's judges pissed is sloppy lawyering..  The Interrogatories were very technical (I wrote them) and asked for production of items that they really don't want to divulge, but they know they have too, so this is probably why they're taking so long.
 
In addition, the post above shows that the retention period for source documents is "now" 6 years, BUT, it was 10 when the action started.  My guess is they closed this little inconveinence as a direct result of this case.. ??
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/June/2008 at 5:09pm
No. If were a case history issue, it would have to be comprised of a few to make that ruling.
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robert.s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29/July/2008 at 9:57pm
Only a little off topic, but I'm in almost the same boat as the original poster, so I figure this is as good a place to ask as any!

Basically my student loan debts were ruining my life--everyone here knows the stories, my story was certainly nothing different. I couldn't deal with it anymore and left. Really far.

Life here has been really good; without the banks causing me near suicidal stress on a daily basis, I have been able to establish a life that I'm really happy with--both personally and professionally. I really should have left much sooner than I did :)

However, over the years I have grown to miss a few things "back home", and have been tossing around the idea of coming back for a vacation--moving back will never happen--but am a bit worried about being "nabbed". I would not be travelling on a Canadian passport, so basically I'm wondering this; if I rock up to customs and present myself as citezen of (place I now call home), will I simply get my tourist visa like everyone else, or will they say "oh no, we've been waiting for you!" and end up staying much longer than I'd want to? My biggest fear is simply getting stuck in Canada!

What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/July/2008 at 10:17am
robert.s,
 
not paying your debt is not illegal.  it's a civil matter..  You're safe.
 
Hic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote threebrooks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/July/2008 at 3:29pm
I need some direction...left Nova Scotia to go work in the US in 1995 with about 15K in student loan.Paid until 1997 and stopped. I called Revenue Canada and they have no record. RBC has no record. Trying to get a Canadian Credit Report from the US is crazy. What is the likely scenario here for me? Who has my loan?
 
I plan on returning in 1-2 years...what can i expect?
Todd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robert.s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30/July/2008 at 6:43pm
Thanks! I may have a small vacation in Canada next year then :)

As well, I am now very interested in seeing your redacted summary once it appears--I have an eerie feeling I may need some of the information at some future date :)

Cheers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 7:38am

Hi,

 

If you haven't made a payment since 1997, then you're safe as well.  You're loan is time barred, which means that you still owe the money, but the time limitation prevents the Gov, or anyone else from legally forcing you to pay it.  I suggest telling anyone that may call you to buzz-off..  If you admit in any form that you owe the money, your time limitation will be reset..

 

Be careful,

 

Hic

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 7:46am
This is not true, Hic. There are things that could have occured that may suspend a limitation period without the borrower being aware.
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hicup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 7:49am
True, but I was under the impression that he has had no contact with anyone regarding this student loan.  If this is the case, and there is no summary judgement against him, then he should be safe.
 
Hic-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote threebrooks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 8:32am
What I'm really hearing, from everyone I've called and these posts is this....
there are no hard facts or definites....
I have outstanding debt from student loans, with my last payment being in 1997 and I can't locate who is holding it!!!
Revenue Canada states they have no 'flags' on my SIN and does this really mean anything?
RBC states that Government of Canada assumed my debt.  I haven't filed taxes in Canada since 1997.
Anyone have a # I can call to ask
Todd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gressi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 8:59am

Like what? Being sued? I was sued by the CIBC for student loans and they couldn't bring it cross border because they didn't follow florida's law, to what I understood I needed to be advised that I was being sued in a timely fashion to be able to represent myself in Canada, they didn't do that. So this brings a good question up, is the CIBC's law suite against me in Canada still valide or can I have it recinded since I was not aware that I was being sued?

 
Thanks.
Oh! man! I can't take this anymore!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote threebrooks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31/July/2008 at 9:08am
Called National Student Loan Center---they sent me to---Service Canada (18663367565)
They informed me my loan is in "Inactive Recovery"-in his thick accent he informed me "we can not garnish wages". He informed me that if I want to make 'voluntary payments' i could do so by mailing them to SDC-Remiitta NCS, PO Box 1144, Matame, QC G4w-4s9...their # being 18666029454.
i'd be very interested in seeing what my Credit Report says...
Although revenue Canada has told me they have no intention to hold Income tax refunds, etc.....I don't trust @#$#.....
I have an opportunity to move home and don't know what to do
Todd
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