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Grant Overpayments

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Topic: Grant Overpayments
Posted By: valerielynn
Subject: Grant Overpayments
Date Posted: 05/April/2004 at 7:54am

Greeting.

I was just contacted by a collection agent telling me that A grant/bursary I received was in collection.  It was decided that I made too much money and the Ontario Government wanted $1,100 of the money back.  The last time I got a grant/bursary was in 1988.  Is it possible they can come after me after all of this time?  I haven`t been that hard to find.  When I told the collection agent that this should be statute barred (I work in a bank an we now have a 2 year statute) I was told that there is no statute of limitations for the crown and that if I don`t pay within one week they will report it on my bureau.  

ANy advice out there?

 




Replies:
Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 06/April/2004 at 6:31am
Hi I got the exact same call for the exact same
situation, There are a few others on this site in
different posts as well. From what I have found out
so far is that OSAP has no stats barred
consideration, and they can't report you to the
bureau either. When the agency calls again ask
them to supply you with supporting documents of the
debt as they can't initiate any action until 30 days
after you receive that. They will try to tell you to get it
from OSAP but they have to suply it to you themself.
     From what I have read here is that this might have
been a " purchase receivable " account that OSAP
sold ta an agency for there own interests. I have a
post under dealing with collection agencies.
   Let us know if you find out more info, together we
might have a better chance at fighting this.


Posted By: valerielynn
Date Posted: 08/April/2004 at 3:58am

Russ,

Thanks, I`ve asked for the documents and been told they are on the way.  Once again the agent informed me that if I did not pay within 1 week I would have it reported on my bureau.  I responded that if that in fact happened I would be suing her and her agency.  That pretty much shut her up.  I work for a bank, so I will keep an eye on my bureau over the next months.  Once I get a look at the documents and see why they changed the status of my bursary I will update the site.  Thanks for the advice.



Posted By: tanyaxoxo
Date Posted: 12/April/2004 at 7:22am
I do not believe the Statute of limitations applies to student loans. I
was wondering, since you work at a bank, if you know how the new
statute of limitations affects older claim... ie if a claim was sent into
collection a year ago it was still under the old statute, do they still
have 6 years to collect in court, or does the new statute give them
only 2 years now?


Posted By: valerielynn
Date Posted: 12/April/2004 at 8:04am

Tanya,

The new statute applies to old as well as new.  They only have two years from the time of your last acknowledgement of the debt (payment).  Unfortunately, with provincial loans it appears the government has exempted themselves from stat barred status.

Valerie



Posted By: valerielynn
Date Posted: 12/April/2004 at 10:45am

That`s correct.  This does not apply to student loans however.



Posted By: tanyaxoxo
Date Posted: 12/April/2004 at 11:15am
Thank you very much. I'm sorry that it doesn't apply to student loans
... the government always finds a way to screw people...


Posted By: redmachine
Date Posted: 17/April/2004 at 12:04pm

I to have received this call recently. Collect corp is telling me that I have to repay $3100. I asked for documentation and was told that they'd send it and I have 30 days to repay that grant money. The last OSAP I received was in 1992. I was told my parents income had been reassessed. I am presently off work due to an injury and am in a WSIB appeal. I am not getting any money at the moment from any sources so needless to say this didn't come at a good time. I can't believe they can go back 12 years and suddenly expect you to just pay them. You only have to keep tax records for seven years. Any advise would sure be appreciated.



Posted By: foreverindebt
Date Posted: 19/April/2004 at 9:54am
Here's my advice, tell them you're not working and have no money. If they continue to harass you, tell them to take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. 


Posted By: redmachine
Date Posted: 19/April/2004 at 10:24am
Today I received a letter from Collect Corp informing me they have received no responce to their corespondence. I phoned them and was told not to worry it's just a standard letter. They have requested my info and told me no action would be taken untill 30 days after I get the documentation. I phoned the OSAP office in Thunder Bay and was told that the collecters have requested my file and that untill it is received they have little info for me. They told me to contact The Central Management Unit in Toronto. They said that because I reqested my file the account is automatically on hold for 90 days. I was also told that there is no statute of limitations on debts to the Crown for moneys owed to her majesty. It is rediculous that a free country such as Canada has laws in place stating that there is a six year limitations on debt collection but that it doesn't apply to a figure head of another country.


Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 12/May/2004 at 10:01am
valerielynn
I was wondering how things are working out with
your osap grant overpayment? I have been elevated
to the next collection agent when I told them that I
was filing an appeal to osap over their ruling of my
grant. That made the cbcl very angry ha ha ha.
anyway please keep us up to date.

Russ.


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 13/May/2004 at 9:02am

Thought I would share my experiences with this grant overpayment crap.  I recieved a call in Mar from a collection agency stating money due in full, bla bla.  Well this grant was given to me in 1991, so that's a very long time for the provicial gov to take no action or attempt to notify me about this overpayment.  The agent responded that they only had the last address from when I was in school, to which i stated that I have a provincial health card & drivers licence with my current address?!?!  I wrapped up the phone call with "wouldn't this so called debt fall under the statute of limitations?"  She replied "Provincial debts have a 20yr window in which to collect, are you currently employed?"  I said that's non of your business & she hung up, & I never heard from them again.

  A couple days ago my wife get a letter from a different collection agency and a phone call the same day.  Same bs they told me, my wife also went to school in 91 & this agency was claiming she owed back for an overpayment.  My wife told them to take that big rubber stamp that says "Stats Barred" and stamp it on her file.  The agent told her "You know how many times people say that to me, you don't understand the laws"  My wife told the agent she was disgusted how they are trying to bully people into paying them for a debt they bought off the government.

From what I've read on this forum and other places , only loans are exempt from the statute & that changed fairly recently.  The statute is 6yrs in every province accept for Alberta(I think).  The arguements that agents give after being told stats barred, are all over the place.  This inconsistancy shows they are just making it up, and people they are calling get confused and there confidence is shaken not knowing for sure how this all works.



Posted By: waku
Date Posted: 14/May/2004 at 5:24am

I would just like to clear up an issue, since I can't seem to find the actual answer anywhere in the forums.

Like several other people, I received an Ontario Study Grant for the 91-92 program year. A reassessment was done on 11/03/92 and it was decided that I received an overpayment of $570.00. Apparently the OSAP office sent out letters on the following dates: 11/27/92, 05/13/94, 08/26/94 and 03/31/00. In March 2004, my account was turned over to TCH Alliance One, who also sent out a letter demanding payment on 03/19/04, and then began calling me thereafter. I have never made any payment or acknowledged this debt and really don't plan to start. Anyways, to make a long story short, is there a statute of limitations regarding Ontario Study Grants (ie: 6 years, 10 years, 20 years to collect) before they are written off and the file closed? And where would I be able to find that information to tell the collection agency to stuff it?



Posted By: notzippy
Date Posted: 20/May/2004 at 6:44am
Hi

I recieved a notice also for a OSAP grant overpayment. Apparently my parents income was reassesed (for the years 87-88, 88,89). They claim they sent out a reassesment notice in 90 which I never received. Now collectcorp is sending me nast emails saying I must "this is you last oppertunity to resolve this debt in an amicable voluntary manner"
WTF !

Has anyone got a definitive answer on the statute of limitations on grants by the ontario goverment. H*ll I've been living and working in ontario (since school) and this is the first I've heard of my outstanding debt.....

Help ?!?


Posted By: leavingcan
Date Posted: 23/May/2004 at 8:50am

I'm no expert and you may wish to run this by Johnny, but -

Limitation periods can vary province to province.  There is a distinction between (1) a limitation period (how long the government or the agency to which it has assigned the debt can take to sue you) which could be 6 years or some other period and (2) the period a judgment (on the debt awarded by the court after the government brings an action against you) stands which could be twenty years.  This is a distinction likely to be lost on a collections agent.

If you think your claim is statute-barred (i.e. the government did not sue on the debt in time) tell the collection agent that your address for service of their claim is "X (state your address)" That is legalese for "F**k off and die - you have no case"  If they file their claim you file a defence on the basis that the action is statue barred.  Tell them if they fail to file within thirty days and continue to call you that you will seek a restraining order from the courts and remedies from the phone company against their business.

I don't know about the Crown in Ontario being exempt from the limitations periods.  That could vary from province to province.  I think there was a tax case brought by the feds which they lost on the basis that the case was statute barred - so if it is a federal debt the limitations period (likely of in the province in which the loan was made, though you should get advice on this) applies. 



Posted By: leavingcan
Date Posted: 23/May/2004 at 9:27am

Don't take this as legal advice and do try (if you're in Toronto) something like a poverty law clinic:

More on the Ontario stuff.  I had a quick look at the Limitations Act in force now and it seems to be the case that there is no limitation period for the Crown collecting on debts, etc.  Someone should attack this - and maybe someone other than student debtors will as it affects poverty law generally...

But for any given individual  it MAY depend on what the Limitation period used to be.  If the claim expired before the new Act came into force then it could still be statute-barred.  It's a bit beyond me to look up the old Act...

I'll try pasting the new Act. Hmm - didn't work.  Try going to LexUM, look up the Ontario Limitations Act and check the section called Transition. 

Anyway, hope this helps in some way...



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 24/May/2004 at 8:18am

 

 The statute of limititations for CSL debt is 6 years across the country. Bill C-28 is relevent to the CSLP. As for provincial loans in the province of Ontario, there appears to be no statutes in place per the provincial guidelines and limitations act. In other provinces there are statutes in force.

Now, as for judgment accounts, the statute is 10 years for the federal government. If the government does not "renew" the judgment before 10 years has passed, then the statutes would come into force.

 



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: oracle_sue
Date Posted: 26/May/2004 at 2:41am
I also received the call.  I received a grant in 1982 and my mother's income was reassessed.  I now owe $1840.  I received my first call in 1992.  The first collection agent was very threatening and I told them to go pound sand.  I did not hear from them again, however a different collection agent called me 3 weeks ago (12 years later) and the case still lives.  I had quite a good conversation with this person.  It will NOT be forwarded to the credit bureau.  I asked about the likelihood that if I ignored this again would the provincial government take me to court for the money.  The agent told me that only those cases forwarded by his office would be considered.  He said that the main factor is the dollar amount, and that in my case, he would most likely not forward the case.  I thanked him for his opinion and I await my next phone call in 2014! 


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 27/May/2004 at 8:21am

  Just an update on my situation, well after hearing nothing from the collection agency for 3 months a different agent called and left a message on my machine last friday.  I didn't respond and was paged at work yesterday and discovered the agent calling me at work!!!!  I was pretty upset that they were calling my work, and surprised that the agent gave the intro like this was their fist contact with me about this.  I told her that I had already spoke to them about this 3 months ago, and stated for them to file thier claim & stop calling me.  I also stated that my file is stats barred, the agent kept saying "why, why?".  I hung up on her, and she called back paging me again.  I told reception that these calls are unwanted and to tell the company they will no longer accept calls from them for me.  I came home to a message from a office supervisor from the agency stating I must call them back befor 5 and that I'm very misinformed.

  Needless to say I' didn't call them back & so far have not been called at work again.



Posted By: slats
Date Posted: 07/August/2004 at 9:29am

I recieved a call from canadian bonded credit limited.  They said I owe $1800 for a ontario grant overpayment from 1992. 

Has anyone ever had this happen.  I finished paying my loans off in 1999.  I was suprised to get this call.  There is no way in hell I will ever pay them.  I would definately go to court first.  Anyone had anything similar happen to them.



Posted By: leezer
Date Posted: 07/August/2004 at 4:10pm
Yup slats....keep diggin' thru this site and you'll find lots of us.
Apparently most people repay. I however did repay my grant
and it seems the gov. at the time misapplied some portion of
the payment. I seems now the ontario gov. wants me to
repay....

not happin'


Posted By: ANNM04
Date Posted: 09/August/2004 at 4:01am
I'm in the same situation. The advice I received up to now is not to give the CA a dime because there is a statute of limitation and the case would unlikely go to court. (read under topic "Isn't there a statute of limitation?). Good luck.


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 3:53am
Hi, just wonder if there any follow-up?

I received another phone call from the collection agency today.  The agent tried very hard to convince me it was my fault not filling in the correct info when I file my OSAP application.  I  had to hang up on him eventually.

It has been 10 years since I received OSAP, and during this time I had been working abroad for six years.  I can't believe they can still come after me...


Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 6:48am
Seems the Ontario Government has gone back over its files for the last ten years and is trying to collect grants that now are deemed as overpayments.

Instead of sending out notices, these grant overpayments were sent straight to a collection agency.

How are people dealing with this?


Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 6:51am
Tories go on student-loan collection binge
CAMPUS    

The Ministry of Colleges and Universities is dredging up ghosts of Ontario student loans past. Way past.

Take the case of Shawn Whitney, a grad student at York who got a letter last week telling him he has 30 days to return a grant overpayment of $1,050 dating from, like, 1989.

"It takes them 11 years to get their act together, and they want me to work out repayment arrangements in 30 days?"

The letter sent to Whitney claims he couldn't be located, but he has received money from OSAP several times in recent years.

Says Dave Ross, a spokesperson for the ministry, "We have to be fair to the taxpayer whose hard-earned money supports student assistance plans."

Joel Harden, chair of the Canadian Federation of Students, says the province is "nickel-and-diming." He estimates that more than 20,000 students, some with loans dating back to the 70s, can expect the ministry to come calling.


From http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/19/24/News/brief.html


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 7:52am
This is my story:

I just found out that I had problem with OSAP. I
borrowed a Student Loan in 93/94 (I can't even
remember the amount now...I thought this matter
ended long ago). The OSAP representative told me that I
was exampted for around $3000+ and didn't have to pay
the full amount back, so I didn't when I graduated in
94.

After I graduated, I worked abroad but I did made
occasional visits (a couple of weeks every couple of
years) back to Canada. I lost my job at the end of
2001 and moved back to Toronto.

A couple of months ago I received a phone call from
a collection agent, he said that Ontario Government
decided they have made "overpayment" when they gave
me the loan and they want their 3000+ dollars back. To
me it's quite a shock since I have never heard
anything from them for the last nine years and
thought I have settled that problem long ago. I have
been unemployeed for years and really have no money to
pay.

Please help.


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 7:54am
Hi everyone:
I’ve spent the last few days reading all the threads in this website, and came up with the following conclusions:
 

1.      Statute of limitations of OSAP:  it seemed that there “appears to be no statutes in place per the provincial guidelines and limitations act”.(from Johnny)  I think just because nothing is in place in the government’s own guidelines and acts, doesn’t mean none exists.  If our cases are brought to the court, the judge would most likely look for other legislations as references to determine statute of limitations for OSAP.

 

2.      Since Canada Student Loans Act is a federal legislation, it should overpower a provincial one.  The court judge would most likely use this a the reference for determining statute of limitations for OSAP, meaning that statues of limitations on OSAP is 6 years.

 
Am I correct in reaching the above conclusions?  It would be great if we can get a legal confirmation on this matter.


Posted By: leezer
Date Posted: 19/August/2004 at 8:33pm
Hi everyone,
I too had received notification from a CA in May 2004
attempting to extract $930.00 from me from a 1988 OSAP grant
reassement that was in fact repaid in full. I filed a formal
complaint with the Ontario Ministry of Business and Consumer
Services, Collections Agencies Division; copies to the CA with
an order to them to cease and desist all further wrongful action
against me; and all documents forwarded to my MP Bill Siksay,
NDP Burnaby North.
Telephone calls from the CA have now stopped. My MP Bill
Siksay has agreed to advocate on my behalf. I can't say if the
matter is resolved at this point, however I suspect that my file is
probably "flagged--troublemaker" at the CA and left to cool for a
while....


Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 23/August/2004 at 8:48pm

Limitation on OSAP overpayments

Dear Comrades,

Grant overpayment nightmares eh?  Well much like the lot of you they called me out of the blue over 10 years after the fact.  The fact is the statues of limitations on OSAP (which falls under the Canada Student Loans Act) is 6 years!  Check out the link below or punch up CSLA under google.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/government/C-28/C-28_4/90218b-2E.html - http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/gover nment/C-28/C-28_4/90218b-2E.html

Now should you wish to dispute this, contact the people at the Collection Management Unit, at the link below.  I do however suggest that once they have contacted you, try sending a letter from a lawyer or paralegal (they are cheaper and just as efficent).  First of all to inform you of your rights, secondly they will take you seriously.

http://www.pace.gov.on.ca/paceweb/owa/intergtd_en.disp_office?IN_UNIT_ID=UNT0003895&IN_GTD_SERVICE=GTD - http://www.pace.gov.on.ca/paceweb/owa/intergtd_en.disp_offic e?IN_UNIT_ID=UNT0003895&IN_GTD_SERVICE=GTD

Now the manager's name is Vijay, who is a very angry and unpleasant individual, I suggest try dealing with his manager, who you can find on the link.

I wish you all luck, because like the most of you I went through the injustice, verbal abuse and frustration of trying to cooperate with our government, and what for?  An error they made?!

 



Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 24/August/2004 at 12:56am
billw:

Thank you for the info.  It is definitely a relief!

You mentioned sending a lawyer letter; do you know any lawyer or paralegal who might be familiar with this issue?  I think most of us would eventually need a lawyer letter to stop the harrassment.

A CA called me last week asking me to return the overpayment from a “loan forgiveness” that was given to me 10 years ago.  He kept saying it was not a loan…I think LF falls under the limitation doesn’t it?








Posted By: owenothing
Date Posted: 24/August/2004 at 4:02am
Caution people (for those who have no intention to pay):

DO NOT IN ANY WAY ACKNOWLEDGE YOU OWE THEM MONEY!!

At the last portion of the CSLA, it is stated that once the borrower acknowledges the debt in any form, the statute of limitations will nullify even after 6 years.  That means they can come after you again.

Now I understand why CA is trying so hard to get me "acknowledge" the overpayment.


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 25/August/2004 at 10:49am

One week after hanging up on the CA, I received a letter from Collectcorp today, threatening me that if they don¡¦t receive a payment or hear from me within the next 24 hours, I will leave them no alternative but to advice their client ¡§of the most efficient method of collecting this account.¡¨  

 

Was it a bad idea to ignore the CA?  If any one can offer a suggestion on what to do, I would really appreciate.

 

 



Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 25/August/2004 at 1:27pm

Hey khsu,

I have dealt with Collect Corp and my suggestion to you is tell them you are dealing directly to the manager at Collection Management Unit, his name is Vijay Khandi.  Or file a complaint against Collect Corp with the CMU, with a Customer Service Rep (you can find the number on my previous message, the second link) and they will have a manager contact you.

I can forward you the info for the paralegal I am using if you wish, but I live in Toronto?  Not sure if that is convienent for you or not?

Now I suggest a formal letter in writing for two reasons; so you never have to deal with these people again.  Once you hire a para legal the letter will state that all future dealings will go thru him, if any?  And in the event they try passing your monies owed to another collection agency, guess again?



Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 25/August/2004 at 3:53pm

Hi billw:

 

Thank you for your help¡KI am so relieved to see your suggestions.  I will call Mr. Khandi first thing tomorrow morning.

Please forward the info for info for the paralegal you are using to my email.

Should I just go to them and tell them what I need, or do I need to come up with a draft? Do you know how much it will cost?

Thanks again.



Posted By: BigFatherA
Date Posted: 25/August/2004 at 3:57pm
khsu:  The most efficient method is to harrass you untill your brain falls out and you somehow agree to pay them!  The minister in charge is already quoted that they won't (probably because they legally can't) sue these accounts. 

Your response should be: Claim Denied!




-------------
BigFatherA
Priest & Teacher
non carborundum illegitemi est


Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 25/August/2004 at 6:56pm

khsu - I just sent you an e mail check it out!

BigFatherA - for the most part I agree with you, but these people will not stop, not to mention after awhile they will just switch your file over to another collection agency and they will just keep on harassing you til the end of time.

Collection agencies work on percentages, so after 6 month to a year the file is deemed "uncollectable", but that does not stop other agencies from coming into the picture and offering taking a lower cut to get more money.   



Posted By: BigFatherA
Date Posted: 26/August/2004 at 8:40am
That is definately a problem.  Some collection agencies have a dead pool (my term) where "non-compliant" accounts go onto a list which collection agents can pull and try on a semi-regular basis.

I don't have a ready solution, except to remind everyone that we're in this together, and I keep you all in my prayers

We all need to be responsible for our real obligations, first to ourselves and our families and friends. 

Debt, both real and imagined, should be dealt with by all parties with realism and compassion.  But when that fails, I have no problem with self preservation. 


-------------
BigFatherA
Priest & Teacher
non carborundum illegitemi est


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 26/August/2004 at 9:09am

Thank you billw and BigFatherA for your support.

 

I followed billw¡¦s suggestion and got my problems straighten out.  Let¡¦s just see what happens (I suspect nothing will happen).

 

As for the obligation bit¡Kjust because I don¡¦t have much money, doesn¡¦t mean I am at fault.  I don¡¦t borrow money, I don¡¦t rely on welfare.  When my family requires money, I would just starve myself and give them the money.  I don¡¦t have money but live honestly, that is until the Ontario government came over and set me up as the bad guy.

 

BigFatherA is right¡Kwe are all on this together.  If we choose to just mind our own business, then it would be really easy for the government to break us one by one.  It is only a matter of time.

I was thinking about writing to my MP¡Kbut I was told that MP would probably think this is not a worthwhile matter.  If we can work together, sign a petition form or something, our MPs might take us more seriously.  With more of us, we can also write to the media and get the whole scandal exposed.  What does everybody think?

 



Posted By: leezer
Date Posted: 26/August/2004 at 3:23pm
I wrote my MP and he took the matter seriously and responded
on my behalf with a letter to OSAP telling them to back off.

He supported my claim that after 16 years I have no
documentation to prove my full payment (they dispute a
missing partial payment) and I am not legally obligated to have
kept such records after this length of time and I still maintain
that there is no claim against me.

So it is definately worth contacting your MP khsu!
good luck


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26/August/2004 at 5:00pm

Leezer, It's so unusual to get help from a politician that I think you ought to post his name! We ought to acknowledge it every time somebody steps into the ring for us. Positive feedback can only help.

I'd go farther and suggest that everybody send him an email or a letter thanking him.

In fact, Moderator? maybe we could set up a forum for just that...a place to thank and publicise those public servants who show any interest in these issues. As it stands, it will take up very little space...



Posted By: leezer
Date Posted: 28/August/2004 at 3:45pm
Gladly Java Man,
My MP is Bill Siksay, NDP Burnaby Douglas, 4647 Hastings St.,
Burnaby, BC V5C 2K6
email: siksa1a@parl.gc.ca

Incidently, this was Svend Robinsons' previous riding and Bill
was Svends' constituency assistant for 18 years. Bill is active in
anti-poverty and intercultural initiatives. I had very positive
interactions with his office staff.

I am pleased to say that my vote counted this year, and I have
the good fortune of being represented at last by a politician
who listens to the concerns of his constituents.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29/August/2004 at 5:06am

Good riding...always liked Svend.

Voters, take note!



Posted By: lulu
Date Posted: 13/September/2004 at 10:00am
I have been harrassed with phone calls over the last 4 months from Total Credit Recovery regarding  a grant overpayment of $550 (the total grant was 800.00).  I went to college 17 years ago!  I kept telling them they were running a scam and that this was nonsense.  They even called me at work.  Today I got something that looked like a bill with the recommendation to pay it within 24 hours or else......Blah, blah, blah.  Let em come after me.  My next move will be a visit to my MP and my lawyer!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13/September/2004 at 4:07pm
Don't back down!


Posted By: dolphin
Date Posted: 20/September/2004 at 7:19am

In October of 1991 my then husband lost his job.  I was a stay at home mom raising 3 kids.  In February of 1992 I was advised through a computer school that I could apply for a student loan and/or government grant.  I receiver a student loan for about $2,000 and a grant for $3,500.  I finished school in 1992 and repaid my loan over the next 5 years.

 

In 1994, my husband split and left me with the 3 kids to raise financially on my own.  Shortly after he left, I receiver a letter from the government informing me that after reassessing our returns, I no longer qualified for the grant ($3,500), and that I needed to repay it.

I wrote them a letter outlining my situation and informing them that had I know I would have to repay a loan of $5,500 instead of just $2,000 I would not have accepted the grant.

 

I never heard another word from them until March of this year, when I received a phone call from a collection agency by the name of ARO (or something like that).  They said that they were calling regarding an outstanding OSAP loan.  I told them that I paid off my loan years ago, and they told me that I needed to repay the $3,500 grant as well.

 

Ever since, I have been receiving calls at home insisting that I pay.  Last week the calls started at work…a woman by the name of Barbara from the same agency started calling and demanding I pay the money.  I told her that I did not have that kind of money on hand she told me to put it on a credit card, to which I replied I don’t have that kind of limit available.  She then proceeded to tell me I needed to borrow the money from a relative, friend or financial institution and also informed me that she knew that I had good enough credit to qualify for a loan, and even suggested a few financial institutions and gave me the number for Citi Financial.

 

She told me again on Friday that I needed to borrow the money right away and pay her or else the government will take what ever means they need to collect the money themselves “freeze my bank accounts, garnish my wages etc.”  Those were her exact words, and that I must call her by Monday morning at 10:00 a.m. (today).  I asked her not to call me at work…that I did not conduct my personal business at work.  At about 9:15 a.m. this morning she again called me at work and wanted me to identify myself to her.  When I realized who it was, I just said “I told you already not to call me at work” and hung up the phone on her.

 

Anyone…please advise on how I should deal with this situation…it’s now interfering with my work.  How do I get rid of these harassing people…do I have any rights in my situation.


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 20/September/2004 at 9:40am
dolphin:

There are lots of us in the same situation in this forum.  Judging from the year of your SL, it is probably statute-barred. 

There are various things you can do...as many people have suggested in the previous posts.  I bought an answering machine and hired a paralegal...problem solved.

If you are not in a position to pay, DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE the debt.  This will nullify the statute of limitation.  I am not sure writing them by yourself is a good idea...you might make mistakes you are not aware of. 

Or you may choose to do nothing...the reality is that there is nothing the CA can do except harrassing you.  CA knows this too.  They know they can't retrieve this money through legal means.  They call you to find out how to push you to pay.  If you tell them you don't want them calling you at work, you can be sure that they will start calling you at work.  Just dug up a weakness from you...why not use it?

Act cool and don't be afraid...good luck.



Posted By: dolphin
Date Posted: 20/September/2004 at 10:55am

Khsu;

I have followed your story, which seems some what similar to mine, and noticed that Billw shared some information with you via an email.  The name Mr. Khandi was mentioned...did you contact him????  Was himself or anyone else able to help you????  I am interested to know the outcome...please advise.

Dolphin



Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 20/September/2004 at 11:46am
dolphin:

Billw has been a great help to me.  We exchanged quite a number of emails so it is difficult to go over them here (you do know that sometimes CA will visit this site too, don't you?).  Basically he referred me to his paralegal who advised me of my legal rights and worked out a way to stop the CA's harrassment. 

As for the outcome...I have not receive any phone call or letter since then...and I suspect that I will see anything in the future. 

To me, as soon as I realized that I owe them nothing, my problem was resolved.  

 


Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 22/September/2004 at 6:00pm

To Hami and Dolphin,

First know your rights, it is illegal for collection agencies to call your work and your cell phone.  If you want I will look up the link later and post it.  All you have to do is tell the person that is calling you that it is illegal and if they do call you will file a formal complaint.

Secondly, do yourself a favour and read my first note, I believe you can find it under "How to deal with ...".  And Dolphin, to answer your question about Vijay, no he is not a nice man, in fact he is a veddy, veddy bad man.  He is however the manager of the Collection Mgmt Unit (of OSAP), if he gives you a hard time, try contacting his boss Kim Dobson.  Also, can be found under my first notes under link.

Get legal advice!  Once a letter has been sent on your behalf, from a paralegal, most of your problems will be solved.

And please read my first note!



Posted By: catty
Date Posted: 24/September/2004 at 8:24am

I just wanted to clarify the post about the statute of limitations and old claims.  Section 24 of the SoL deals with old claims.  If the claim was "discovered" before the new act came into effect (Jan 1, 2002)then they get the old 6 years.  If it was discovered after the new act came into effect, then they get 2 years.  Discovered means, in short, the point at which they knew they'd have to sue you to get the money back.   

In any case I have no idea how that applies to OSAP since there appear to be special rules for it. 

-catty-

 



Posted By: catty
Date Posted: 24/September/2004 at 8:28am

I also wanted to mention if you go to http://www.cbs.gov.on.ca - www.cbs.gov.on.ca there is a brochure called a consumers guide to collection agencies.  It gives you the quickie version of your rights vis a vis collection agencies. 

 

-catty- 



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 25/September/2004 at 7:55pm

 

 Collection agencies are bound by an act, indeed. The problem is when they break the rules and are not held accountable. Truly, do you think collectors can do their jobs effectively by staying within the rules and guidelines? This is why they bend - even break the rules because they feel that fear, stress, anxiety, aggression are the key to motivating a person to pay. It is an adverse psychology in the management of money and accounts receivables.

 



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25/September/2004 at 9:36pm

The theory is that abuse is healthy for the collector and his income.

That's because intimidation usually prevents serious complaints. When you have been browbeaten and demoralised and made to feel lower than the rest of the world, you don't believe that you even have the right to complain.

And complaints aren't taken seriously anyway. I've heard ministry officials tell people to just pay their bills and they won't have any problems with collectors.

Once you are on this side of the fence, you have no status in Canadian society and are disenfranchised from any real government protection. You are now marginalised and despised by the people who are paid to protect you.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

You are in the Chateau d'If and no one escapes. Or almost no one. You have to change your way of thinking, forget the old paradigms, but it can be done. Stop spreading your legs.

Just get out...The Count of Monte Christo and I did by the skin of our teeth and we are much older, wiser and a great deal more bitter. But we live well.



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 26/September/2004 at 4:21pm

 

 Theory is theory. The psychopathology is simple. Fear creates urgency - the quick way. The reason debt is in collection is because it is unpaid. The original creditor had done what they could to collect (which I fail to believe) and at this point, it is time to be "not so nice".  Collectors feel that creditors are just "too nice".

 Collection agents know they have very little power. They have to make others believe that they are powerful. The only real delivery method of exuding this power is in their phrasing - and ability to sell their spiel.. which is almost always empty rhetoric.

 Collectors try everything and anything to capture that control - and motivate a person to their appeal. This is where the problems occur regarding lawlessness, ambiguousness - and their quest to pyschologically tenderize an individual, and instill fear.

 Johnny   



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26/September/2004 at 4:31pm

You're right, Johnny.

The most basic and fundamental rule is this: Make it more uncomfortable for the debtor to OWE the money than to PAY the money.

So if it's extremely painful to pay (i.e. you have to starve or make your children suffer or commit a crime to pay), you must be made to suffer proportionally MORE pain by your contact with the collector.

It is a very traditional method used by all the pros. FromTorquemada to the American soldiers on Iraqi prisoners.



Posted By: Snap
Date Posted: 29/September/2004 at 5:27am
I have recently been contacted by Nova about a grant overpayment that I recieved in 1991/1992.  My contact via phone with the two representatives I talked to was not much fun.  My story is that apparently I was wasn't entitled to a grant because I had already attended post secondary school 4 years prior to applying for OSAP.  I didn't need any financial assistance during those 4 years because my parents were supporting me. In 1991/1992 I had a child and got married...which is why my parents weren't supporting me financially. I have paid all my OSAP loans, and I did contact my MPP at the time to appeal that I did indeed deserve the grant that was paid to me.  I assumed it was all taken care of.  Seems that this isn't the case now.  I told the representatives today that I did not owe this money because it was all taken care of back in 1992.  The last thing I told them is that I am not paying.  I'm going to see if the MPP in my new riding can help me out...I'll go pay him a visit tomorrow.  This forum is great...gives me a little shred of hope that I might not have to pay this.


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 29/September/2004 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by billw billw wrote:

To Hami and Dolphin,

First know your rights, it is illegal for collection agencies to call your work and your cell phone.  If you want I will look up the link later and post it.  All you have to do is tell the person that is calling you that it is illegal and if they do call you will file a formal complaint.

Secondly, do yourself a favour and read my first note, I believe you can find it under "How to deal with ...".  And Dolphin, to answer your question about Vijay, no he is not a nice man, in fact he is a veddy, veddy bad man.  He is however the manager of the Collection Mgmt Unit (of OSAP), if he gives you a hard time, try contacting his boss Kim Dobson.  Also, can be found under my first notes under link.

Get legal advice!  Once a letter has been sent on your behalf, from a paralegal, most of your problems will be solved.

And please read my first note!

 

Havn't been here in awhile, Bill any more info on agencies calling your workplace would be greatly appreciated.  They havn't called my work since i told them I going to get a restraining order agains't them, but they still call my home every couple of weeks. 



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 30/September/2004 at 3:32am

 

 To the contrary, this person you have named is not a "veddy veddy bad man". In fact, he is one individual that takes matters seriously and is always willing to help in the event something is tossed on his table.

 What does "veddy veddy" mean anyway?



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 30/September/2004 at 12:33pm

to hami

Get yourself an answering machine and a paralegal.  Seek clarification of your rights under the Canada Student Loans Act.  If you don't believe the Statutes of Limitations Act is 6 years ask a professional.  All first consultations are free, click to the link from my first message and bring it in. 

to Johnny,

"veddy, veddy" - see Seinfeld

In regards to your opinion of vijay, I guess you are on a working (CFW) relationship with this individual.  However, I am on the opposite side of table from this person.  While trying to discuss options I was met with hostility and some anger mgmt issues.  He started to yell and was unprofessional in every manner.  He was trying to lecture me on how he was a representative of the people by the people.  Meanwhile he has no restraint while talking to the people?  You are probably right though; he is "willing to help" as long as it suits his purpose, much like yourself, working for the CFW.



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 30/September/2004 at 1:40pm

 

 Well, you must have really torked him off because he is one of the most open-minded individuals at the MBS.

 The statutes of limitations are six years. Refer to Bill C-28 (The new budget implementation act also).

 A letter from a paralegal does not solve the problem at all. What does a paralegal or a lawyer do for an individual in a simple letter of direction? Does the debt get paid? Does it get closed? Does it protect someone from litigation even though there may be a viable avenue of execution if the situation warrants it?I think not.

 Audio recordings are a good method of exposing bad collection calls, most certainly.

 

 

 

 



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30/September/2004 at 3:38pm

In fact, to follow up on Johnny's comments, it might encourage a lawsuit.

If an agency has everything they need to sue...information, sufficient balance, avenue of execution, permission or direction from the client, etc., the receipt of a letter from a lawyer or paralegal will often make them choose not to set up a payment arrangement of any sort and simply file the claim. For one thing, you will have effectively closed the door on any negotiations and, as well, they avoid any likelihood of getting sued themselves over bad collection practices. They know that if they are being watched, sooner or later they're bound to step on their dicks.

Use a lawyer (or paralegal) like a loaded weapon. Don't point it at someone unless you're prepared to go all the way.



Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 01/October/2004 at 12:09pm

To Johnny and Java Man,

I think he was born torked off, but let's drop this one because you and I will not see eye to eye on this one.

I sought a paralegal because all avenues of negoitiations were exhausted.

A para legal will stop the harassing calls as all communications are rooted through you lawyer, and yes I am willing to go the distance.  Do you know why?  Because what they are doing is not right.  Also this issue has not come up in court yet, and in the event it does it will set a precedence.  Hopefully it will not be in vain, but realistically speaking the facts are this;  it was triggered by a OSAP error, they tried to collect 12 years after they caught the fact, they want full payment in 6 months, the statutes of limitations is 6 years and yes they are the do represent the government, I do believe most judges would toss this case as they would consider it a waste of time and taxpayers money.

So who has more to lose? 



Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 06/October/2004 at 5:45pm

Yo Java Man,

You are hilarious!  Because you are right on the money!  I was laughing my ass off, mainly because if I had to write about the individual in question in under 30 words or less, I could not have written a better job! 

Thanks for the words of encouragement Java Man!



Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 07/October/2004 at 8:18pm

It looks like the website administrator disagreed with Java and your assessment as I see he has altered the record to reflect a kinder, gentler website.

Seems Big Brother is indeed watching and continues to subscribe to the theory that if you change the historical record, you change history.



-------------
What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman


Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 08/October/2004 at 4:56am
Although I understand the posts I removed were meant in humour,

I removed posts that
a) were seriously disparaging comments about another person
b) suggested that harming another person was legal

Please note that this site is visited regularly by collection agencies, HRDC, the PM's office among others. (IP addresses tell alot)

Someone could easily have taken the posts the 'wrong way' and this could have had very serious implications for the poster and the site.

Its ok to think these humourous thoughts , but just dont post it :)

Hope you all understand. I'm just trying to play it safe!

Mark
PS: Welcome Islander. hmmm same fonts as Java Man... same writing style...   hmmm either way, welcome!


Posted By: dazed&confused
Date Posted: 08/October/2004 at 6:09am

Which were the posts in question?

Mark, are you serious that these people really check us out?  Why on earth don't they DO something???? Although I guess if they are reading this, it's a start, I suppose....



Posted By: dazed&confused
Date Posted: 08/October/2004 at 6:34am

BTW, Although Voltaire said it best, we do need to accept responsibility for what we say, anonymous or not.  I should say an apology if any of my posts gave anyone the willies as I didn't know any of them CARED!!!  I really am a pacifist even if my posts (meant in good fun) would allege otherwise.

I have enough government people after me.  I don't need CSIS to join the bandwagon.



Posted By: eshelton
Date Posted: 08/October/2004 at 1:46pm
Well I hope the CA's and government are taking hints - we don't like your service. 

If CollectCorp is researching me for the supposed $900 I owe for an Ontario Student Loan, just show me the proof.   I'll gladly pay the whole balance (it's below 6 years).


-------------
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." - Jean Chretien


Posted By: ANNM04
Date Posted: 08/November/2004 at 9:21am

 

Hi all.  I posted my situation in July (grant overpayment from about 15 years ago).  I received a few suggestions and have read just about every post on this site and still don't know what to do.  It isn't clear what our rights are and what we can do--I guess the government and collection agencies are taking advantage of that.  I've been receiving calls from a collection agency, about twice a week, for the past seven months.  They have recently started to call me at work.  I haven't answered the phone in months, I let my machine pick up.  Should I send the CA a letter (what do I write?) or continue to ignore them ?  I find the whole thing ridiculous.  If OSAP wants to collect overpayments, they should do so within a decent timeframe. As for overpayments from 5, 10, 15 years ago, too bad, they should have put their act together before.  



Posted By: Pigeon
Date Posted: 08/November/2004 at 11:59am
I've gone through the posts and it certainly looks like the government has gone a fishing expedition going after loans over a decade old. My only concern is this discussion of sending letters of response. If these loans are statute barred........isn't a letter from a paralegal sent to the CA and acknowledgement of the loan. The way it looks....the CA's know most of these loans are statute barred but are hoping that if they piss people off, they will get a letter in response. IF a letter of response is an acknowledgement of the loan....then the CA's have accomplished what they set out to do which is to reset the clock.


Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 08/November/2004 at 1:06pm

to pigeon & annm04,

To answer your question, no a letter from a paralegal is not a for m of acknowledgement and I will tell you why.  Because the letter states (the one my lawyer wrote anyways) the statutes of limitations, and secondly it states that any further activity regarding this "situation" should go thru "my" paralegal.  It in no way admits to or denies this claim.  Also you should know it is "illegal" for any collection agency to call your work.  Check out the Collections Act, it states what they can and cannot do.

I suggest to people to seek legal help in this situation because it is so unclear, see the Canadian Student Loans Act (see my very first note) and discuss it with any form of legal counsel, they will set you straight. 

The first meeting you have with any paralegal or lawyer is always free, it a consultation.  Bring all your documents and the Canada Student Loans Act when you see them.  They will hopefully tell you the truth, because anyone at OSAP sure isn't!

 



Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 08/November/2004 at 2:32pm

If you must write to them, specifically deny any liability for debt. Do NOT assume that just because you don't explicitly acknowledge it, you're OK.

 



-------------
What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman


Posted By: khsu
Date Posted: 08/November/2004 at 10:46pm
No, a letter of response dose not equal to a letter of acknowledgement.  I had the very same question and my paralegal clarified that. 

I don't think it is a good idea to write them by yourself though; you might make legal mistakes that you are not aware of.

If you really don't want to pay and really want to stop their harrassment, paralegal is really a good option.  The cost is minimal, and all further communication (if any) would be directed to him or her.




Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 09/November/2004 at 12:20am


-------------
What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman


Posted By: dolphin
Date Posted: 13/January/2005 at 2:52pm

Johnny, I have read your postings and looked at the Canada Student Financial Assistance Act where it states that the limitation period is 6 years...but I have also read Ontario's new limitations act 2002 ( http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Source/Statutes/English/2002/S02024_e-SchedB.htm - http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Source/Statutes/English/2 002/S02024_e-SchedB.htm ), which clearly states, under section (k) of it's no limitation period, the following:

No limitation period

16.  (1)  There is no limitation period in respect of,

(a) a proceeding for a declaration if no consequential relief is sought;

(b) a proceeding to enforce an order of a court, or any other order that may be enforced in the same way as an order of a court;

(c) a proceeding to obtain support under the Family Law Act or to enforce a provision for support or maintenance contained in a contract or agreement that could be filed under section 35 of that Act;

(d) a proceeding to enforce an award in an arbitration to which the Arbitration Act, 1991 applies;

(e) a proceeding under section 8 of the Remedies for Organized Crime and Other Unlawful Activities Act, 2001;

(f) a proceeding by a debtor in possession of collateral to redeem it;

(g) a proceeding by a creditor in possession of collateral to realize on it;

(h) a proceeding arising from a sexual assault if at the time of the assault one of the parties to it had charge of the person assaulted, was in a position of trust or authority in relation to the person or was someone on whom he or she was dependent, whether financially or otherwise;

(i) a proceeding to recover money owing to the Crown in respect of,

(i) fines, taxes and penalties, or

(ii) interest that may be added to a tax or penalty under an Act;

(j) a proceeding described in subsection (2) that is brought by,

(i) the Crown, or

(ii) a delivery agent under the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997 or the Ontario Works Act, 1997; or

(k) a proceeding to recover money owing in respect of student loans, awards and grants made under the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities Act, the Canada Student Financial Assistance Act or the Canada Student Loans Act.

Please advise how this impacts the above mentioned Canada Student Financial Assistance Act.  Which do we believe???  It seems as though we have no legal ground to stand on.  What can we do??



Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 18/February/2005 at 1:44pm

Well after a long silence(5-6mths) from the agency harrassing my wife about her grant "overpayment".  I answered the door today and woman handed me document for my wife that looks like a "Small Claims" court summons!  She asked if I lived there and what my first name was, nothing else.  I found it odd that if this thing is legit shouldn't I be signing somehing, also on the cover of the document there is a circle where a seal should be but it is blank.  Any suggestions on how I could verify this is legit?  I have to take a closer look at it when I get home from work tonight, but I didn't see any dates for appearances or nothing.  I don't know what to do next?!?

  One of the last calls my wife received from the agency was at her work where she told the agent to file the claim and they had 30days, and she documented the conversation.  Could this be used in court as they have clearly gone beyond the 30days?



Posted By: kwelmm
Date Posted: 18/February/2005 at 2:07pm

Sounds all too familiar to me......

It may be a statement of claim from whoever is suing you....it should list the small claims court location.....if you want to know for sure if it is legit you could call the court where the claim is registered.

There won't be any dates for appearances quite yet....if this is legit...you will need to file a defendant claim within I think 20 days of being served.  Things can still be resolved without going to court....they (whoever that is) is probably looking for a payment agreement from you and their best way to get that is to sue for garnishment of wages. 

Once you find out if this is legit...I would find someone that can help you ... Johnny on this site is very knowledgeable about this... try giving him a call if you have any questions.  I lucked out and have a paralegal friend who is taking care of things for me!!!!

Good luck....and try not to loose any sleep over this...although, it is hard not to at times!



Posted By: jbleafan
Date Posted: 11/April/2005 at 5:19pm

Hi all,

I wish I had found this forum about sooner.  My wife was pressured and harrassed by collection agents for a few mths before agreeing to pay off $410.00.  We kept defying them until they threatened her credit rating.  BTW, she's been out of school for approx 14yrs!! 

We just recieve an official receipt for this amount from the Ontario Shared Services Bureau for income tax purposes.  I prepare my own tax returns using Taxwiz.  Does any know where I can enter this amount on the tax return...trying to re-coup our loss!

Thanks for your help!

 

 



Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 19/May/2005 at 4:53am
Hami...How are things working for you. Are you going to court or was it a
sham to get you to pay attention. I am still getting calls and being
threatened for legal action as well now.


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 19/May/2005 at 6:30pm
We are going to court, but we have a pre-trial first on June 15.  I guess the agency didn't like our offer to pay $50 a week to them, hehe! They are asking for all court costs to be paid by us also which we denied in our defence claim just willing to pay the overpayment amount only. 
  The nice thing is we havn't have a call or letter from the scum bags since the claim was filed.  Don't really know what to expect when we go to court, hoping for some luck I guess.


Posted By: kwelmm
Date Posted: 20/May/2005 at 1:56am

Hami,

Do you have legal counsel...even a paralegal??

If you don't, consider getting one!  Don't let these people pull the woe over your eyes and take you for other things more than they can or are entitled to.  They will try.  Just like the lawyers for the HRDC are trying to do with me...it all most makes me laugh at times!!

Good luck Hami on June 15!!



Posted By: billw
Date Posted: 20/May/2005 at 2:58am

To Hami,

No I haven't been contacted yet, but good luck to you!  Get your self a paralegal!!!!!!!!  I can't stress that enough!  In the long run it will cost the gov't more and you should see if you could counter sue?  For harassment and unjust cause, I mean you did try to negoitiate a legitiment payment of $50 a month and "it's not enough"?  You were willing to pay and now they take you to court?  I think you may have a reason to counter sue for imunitive damages?  Get a legal counsel and ask them these questions.  Go in with a Para Legal, I can't stress that enough!!  The first consultation is free and they are an inexpensive alternative to lawyers. 

They have tried to contact me after my intial letter from my paralegal, however I called them back and said this is a legal matter and everything should be directed towards my paralegal.  They will still try these little games, but you must get informed with your rights!  I can't stress enough how important it is to get a paralegal!

 



Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 20/May/2005 at 3:53pm
Hami, I had contacted the collections management unit for OSAP last
week after being threatened with a lawsuit where I would be footing the
bill. The ladies name is Ms brunet, and I have an email from her that
states that there will be NO legal action to reclaim OSAP grant
reassessments, but that they may go as far as to take my tax returns. If
you would like me to forward it to you I can.
I also asked about the 2002 ruling where Ont. exempted themselves from
stats barring. Her reply was that it would not apply to assesments from
before then....BUT since there was no specific reference to the OSAP
situation in the Canada student loans act mentioning being stats barred
after six years then there is no time frame for OsAP. In other word she
said reassessments can't be stats barred if the law didn't sat that they
were. My arguement is that if the law dosn't reference them then we have
to go to the next closest thing that applies which would be CSL's


Posted By: eshelton
Date Posted: 20/May/2005 at 4:34pm
Don't ever believe what a collection agency says - never ever ever ever.

-------------
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." - Jean Chretien


Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 20/May/2005 at 4:41pm

 

 The ruling by Management Board secretariat in conjunction with policy set out by the Ontario Ministry of Training Colleges and Universities states that grant overpayments carry no litigation procedings - either in supreme or Scc. When colelctionagencies get hold of these acount assignments, the last thing that they want you to know is that you will never be sued for the debt. They will try to convince you otherwise simply to entice you to pay the debt.

 As for the limitation issues... Ontario does not carry a limitation period, unfortunately. For the Canada Student Loans Program, the statutes of limitations are federal statutes thus carrying a 6 year limitation period for CSL only. Tis statute does not apply to any of the provinces. Provinces carry their own limitation statutes.

 Now, as for income tax seizures, the ammendment to the federal act (Bill C-28) stipulates that income tax rebates can still be taken and applied to a barred debt. This is outlined in section 16.1- item 2.

 Johnny

 

http://www.cfwgroup.ca - www.cfwgroup.ca

 

 



Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 21/May/2005 at 3:38am
Billw,
  We had offered to repay $50 a week in our defence claim we filed only, I'm only assuming they didn't like it because we are still going to court.  I thought we would recieve a call or something to start paying from the agency, but all we got got was this notice for pre-trial.

russ,
 We too contacted CMU and they stated that we were the first they heard of being taken to court but there wasn't anything they could do for us it's gone too far they said.  I would really appreciate the e-mail from them you have.

Posted by Johnny:
"The ruling by Management Board secretariat in conjunction with policy set out by the Ontario Ministry of Training Colleges and Universities states that grant overpayments carry no litigation procedings - either in supreme or Scc."

  Where could I find more info on this?


Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 22/May/2005 at 12:07pm
Hami send me an email at luftmech@mac.com. That address will be active
for only another month or so. Then I will be able to foreward you the info
that I have.


Posted By: In_Disbelief
Date Posted: 03/November/2005 at 4:04pm

Total Credit Recovery has been bugging my ass for 2 years to pay back $500 from a grant overpayment from 1992.

Every single day for 2 years someone has left a voicemail message insisting I call them "IMMEDIATELY!". I already have the so-called proof of paperwork and have since ignored every one of their calls.

Every couple of months a new person gets assigned to my file and pleads the same message "Call immediately! Regarding file number blah blah blah at 1-800 blah blah blah."

Today for the first time someone called saying he is a police officer and I must contact him....you guessed it.....immediately! Also, coincidently from the same phone number 416-774-whatever.

At first I thought a family member died and I don't appreciate "officers" calling and making demands.

According to my lawyer a newspaper article that is posted on this site that says the government will not harass people and will keep their integrity. Total Credit Recovery, who bought this debt from the Ontario Ministry of Education and Training has been nothing but an extremely annoying and harassing bunch of assholes.

I am not paying a 13 year old concocted reassassment.

Does anyone else share a similar story or have any thoughts they would like to share?



Posted By: In_Disbelief
Date Posted: 03/November/2005 at 4:23pm

Here is a related article:

OSAP goes after old students: Province wants many over-payments back; Some grant recipients out of school 23 years (Toronto Star, May 11)
By THERESA BOYLE

More than 5,600 former university students — some who have been out of school for as long as 23 years — are suddenly getting collection notices from the province for OSAP grant overpayments totalling $5.1 million.

The notices are angering some recipients who thought they had paid off student debts years ago.

"Isn't there a statute of limitations on these kinds of things?" Julie Pocock of Waterloo said yesterday.

She recently received a bill for $340 from TCH International, a collection agency hired by the province.

Pocock received a grant from the Ontario Student Assistance Program for approximately $3,000 in 1991-'92 while studying geography at Wilfrid Laurier University. She graduated with a bachelor's degree in 1993 and thought she had squared up her accounts long ago.

"Who knew that the government is secretly digging around in 20-year-old records to scam as much money as possible from people who have already cleared their names," said Pocock, who now works as an admissions specialist at the University of Waterloo.

Ministry spokesman Dave Ross explained that the problem of grant overpayments was first flagged by the provincial auditor back in 1997.

"This is not small potatoes. This is a lot of money," he said.

The auditor had identified $10.5 million in grant overpayments made between 1981 and 1996.

"The overpayments were discovered after reconciliation with other financial information," Ross said.

For example, when students applied for grants, they were asked to estimate how much they planned to earn in wages during the year. They often made more than anticipated, meaning they qualified for less in grants.

"If you put down $5,000 and you made $12,000, then obviously you have to inform the ministry (and say) `Whoops, here's how much it is.'"

An initial batch of 3,663 collection notices, seeking $3.3 million in overpayments, were mailed out during a three-month period beginning November, 2000. But the collection program was put on hold until earlier this year because ministry had trouble proving the money was owed. (The ministry has so far collected $1.5 million of that $3.3 million.)

"When some people ... started asking for documentation, then the collection agencies came back to us and said we need this documentation. There was a realization here that we weren't equipped to provide that information in a very timely and efficient way, so then the whole process was stopped in order for us to get our administrative stuff in order," explained ministry spokesperson Linda Nicolson.

That information is now available, and anyone with questions is invited to call the OSAP accounts receivable department at: 1-800-465-3023.

Another 5,681 collection notices went out in March this year. Individual bills range from $200 to $1,000 and a total of $5.1 million is being sought.

As for the remaining $2.1 million flagged by the auditor, a portion has been written off as bad debts and another portion is in the process of being collected under special repayment arrangements agreed to by the province and debtors.

Pocock is irked that the government has sent a collection agency after her.

Ross said the ministry sent out notices directly to debtors earlier in the year and then turned over all uncollected files to collection agencies in March. That has been standard practice for the province to use collection agencies since 1995, said Ross.

But Pocock said she received no direct notice from the ministry.

No interest is being collected on the outstanding amounts.



Posted By: In_Disbelief
Date Posted: 03/November/2005 at 4:27pm

Another article from University of Western's Gazette:

Grant overpayments recouped

By Sarvenaz Kermanshahi
Gazette Staff

The provincial government is on a mission to recoup money that was given out erroneously to students over 20 years ago.

In an effort to pump an estimated $10-million back into the system, the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities is hunting down an approximate 5,600 former students who were given grant overpayments.

“In 1999, we began sending letters. After three letters, we gave the students’ names to a collection agency,” said Dave Ross, spokesman for the Ministry.

According to Ross, the grant money was given out in good faith and the students who received it should give back what they were not entitled to. “We are confident that students are responsible and will pay it back,” he said.

In a statement given last week before a caucus meeting, Minister of TCU Mary Anne Chambers defended the overpayment crackdown as a means of ensuring money is there for current students who need it.

The government has already collected approximately $2.5-million out of the $10-million discovered missing by the Auditor General. “To put this in perspective, the amount [we are] seeking is more than the entire salary and benefits of the entire staff within a student support branch,” Ross said.

Ross added the ministry would not seek further action against students who did not give back the money and that measures would be taken to ensure that students’ credit lines not be tarnished.

“The Ministry has sent a letter to the Management Board Secretariat to tell the collection agencies not to put any marks on the students’ credits,” he said.

The idea was frowned on by student lobby groups, however. “I think the concept of going so far back is disappointing,” said Adam Spence, executive director of the Ontario University Students’ Association. “Our concept is looking ahead and improving the system in the form of non-repayable grants.”

Spence called into question the benefits of the recollection for current students, stating the administrative costs for the operation were high. “The people they are targeting were grant recipients from 20 years ago,” he added. “The bigger question is targeting students in the future.”

Some students were disconcerted by the extreme measures taken by the Ministry. “I think it’s over-action, as things could be done in a more streamlined way without having to resort to collection agencies,” said first-year psychology student Martin Bauwens.



Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 04/November/2005 at 1:11am

Here is yet another strange phenomenon.

The Ontario Ministry receives thousands of consumer complaints about abuse, nasty behavior, unprofessional conduct, and many other serious matters concerning third-party collection agencies. Yet, the province of Ontario willfully uses these same third-party agencies to collect provincial debt.

I dunno folks, but if I were the Province of Ontario, and I knew that collections agents are known for frequent violation of act and in some cases the law, I would be less inclined to hire them to perform the task of debt recovery.

That goes for any government, really.

It makes the provincial ministry, and it's particular departments look really bad.

Johnny

 



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 04/November/2005 at 3:37am
Hey there In_Disbelief, they have been calling me for the last two years as
well. I think that I am on my sixteenth agent now. I was begining to wonder
if I was the only one refusing to pay off this scam. I don't have any ideas of
how to stop this but they are starting to offer reduced amounts of the sum.

I have also tried arguing that it is un-collectible and to return it as "claim
denied" but that goes nowhere. So I guess I will keep answering the phone
to see if its a new agent this week and tell them the same old story quoting
Big Father A " Go pound sand "

If there is anyone else out there still fighting this thing please pipe in, and
Johnny, if you have any advice on negotiating a buy out I would be willing to
listen. Cheers.


Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 05/November/2005 at 2:35pm

If rally investigated, these gant overpayment amounts could very well be statute barred. The Ontario government is finding that there are overpayments years and years after the fact. The limitations for this debt arer 6 years (providing the occurence date is before 2002).

The Ontario government does not sue grant overpayments. Why? One good reason is the isue of limitations. Are they going to tell you if or not a debt is statute barred? Of course, not. They don't want to alert anyone to the fact that they cannot launch any action or proceedings to recover the debt. Otherwise, they would not be able to collect on it.

In the opionion of others, these overpayments may not be calculated properly thus bearing an erroneous amount.

The first thing one might consider is demanding proof of the claim. If ther claim cannot be proven then it is not a valid debt.

As for reduction, that is something that requires a lot of looking into. In order to do that, I would have to be able to see what you particular situation is. In order to do that, you will have to become a client.

If you want to visit my siteand poke around, you are welcome to do so. There are lots of information pieces on the term.

Johnny  



-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 06/November/2005 at 4:17am

Just an update on our situation.  We went to our pre-trial on June 15 and ammended the defence claim citing "statute of limitations".  Representing the collection agency was a paralegal hired by the paralegal hired by the collection agency, what a joke!  He had no documentation with him & was simpathetic to our situation.  The deputy actually asked him to call the agency during the pre-trial to ask for the document or act that they felt we could be taken to court over this overpayment from 12yrs ago?  At the end of it all the deputy felt the statute applied to this claim, and the paralegal stated he would contact the agency and suggest dropping the claim. 

  We have yet to hear anything else about this since June 15, not sure if we get a notice that the claim has been dropped or not.



Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 06/November/2005 at 6:56am
Hey Hami glad to see your still checking in around here. That sounded like
a good first appearance for a court date. Please keep us posted as to how
you continue to make out. I really hope this silly thing comes to an end
soon for all of us. Cheers.


Posted By: In_Disbelief
Date Posted: 09/November/2005 at 2:13pm
Hami...good to hear some positive news about this frustrating situation. Just wondering a few things, if you don't mind sharing. What city are you in, what credit agency are you dealing with and is the amount they are claiming sizable? Did you have any legal representative yourself? I am absolutely shocked this went to court! Did you read the newspaper articles I posted above. This is not what the government had in mind.


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 10/November/2005 at 1:14pm

 "In_Disbelief" I'm located in Windsor, the credit agency is CBV Collection Services and repesented by Precision Paralegal out of Milton who was represented by another paralegal service(local) at the pre-trial.  This action was against my wife not me but I went with her and we represented ourselves no paralegal.  The Deputy was extremly helpful and sympathetic, also the paralegal couldn't believe that this had gone this far(he was filled in on the details by us).  The amount claimed was $2550 but they were asking for $2731 one lump sum payment or we would have to pay 2.8% interest with a total of $875 in instalments.

Like I siad above we ammended our defence and havn't heard anything since.



Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 10/November/2005 at 1:25pm
I almost forgot, I brought an article russ had sent me titled "Recouping Ont. student grant overpayments ensures funds for needy: Chambers" from May 11 04.  The deputy was very interested in it and made a copy.  When the deputy had asked the para legal to call CBV and tell him what document they feel gives them the right to take us to court, CBV said some act(can't remember) and the deputy ran out while the paralegal was still talkin to CBV and came back with law books.  The deputy looked up the act CBV was refering too and he told them there was nothing in it that was even close to what they were claiming.  It was too funny! He was awsome, an old bugger! 


Posted By: russ
Date Posted: 11/November/2005 at 2:35pm
That is interesting that they are trying to charge interest on a grant re-
assessmennt.   I believe that is illegal as well as it going to court. In my
situation they have offered on more then one occasion to reduce the sum by
ten percent as a good will measure. when I last talked to my current agent
and filled her in on how things work her only reply was " ...unfortunatly I still
have to continue contacting you as long as its on my desk !"

It had undertones of yes this is a scam but I am new here and don't want to
be fired yet.
   


Posted By: Hami
Date Posted: 20/December/2005 at 3:59pm

Hello everyone,

After no corespondance about my wifes case she decided to call the court and get an update, well it turns the Deputy(judge) only made a recomendation on our case to amend the defence claim citing the statute?!  In our pre-trial he told us he was amending our defence claim himself, we asked him if there anything my wife needed to do(sign it etc.) he said "No, Im taking care of it right now."  But the court clerk states our file has been in limbo ever since, because the defence was never amended. 

 We have talked to 3 different people(clerks) at the court and each one gives a different explaination on what happened and what needs to be done next.  The clerk I spoke to today said my wife needs to amend the defence a then request a trial be scheduled or pay $40 to request the case be dismissed.

Any advise on how the amendment citing the statute should read(legaleez)?  I didn't get a copy of what the judge wrote on our case, I think I'll go back tomorrow and get one, one of the clerks suggested copying that for the amendment to the defance.




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