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Software to record phone conversations!!!

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MegaPo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MegaPo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13/December/2004 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Johnny Johnny wrote:

 The real question is "is it admissable in court, or any other legal proceedings?" Megapo would be able to detemrine this rather quickly i would think. This person has a ton (and then some) of such information.



  <blush!>   Thanks, Johnny.  I've been off this site for several months, so I didn't spot your praise until just today!

The question about whether or not recorded phone calls are "legal" pops up once in a while.  I'm glad to see that people want to follow the rules as they are seeking fair solutions to unfair problems.

As people pointed out, "legal" can mean different things in different forums:  (1) Can you be charged for the offense of creating an illegal recording?  (2) Can you benefit (in court or elsewhere) from the content of the tape?  That is, will the civil courts ever hear the tapes?

Okay, (1)...  Canada is a "one-party consent" jurisdiction for recorded conversations.  The creation of the tape is legal so long as at least one participant has consented to the taping.  (Heck, the "participant" doesn't even need to participate!  So long as a person is an obvious party in the conversation (speaking or not), then that person can give consent to anyone (even themselves) to tape a conversation.  So no...  You'll never be charged, unless you secretly tape a conversation that takes place between parties unaware of your recording.  So don't do that!

(2)  The central issue for the civil court is authenticity of the tape.  A court will "hear" a tape only when a witness can testify to the authenticity of the production.  Usually, the person who prepared the tape says, "Yeah, I pressed Record at 2:00pm and let it run for 20 minutes, then pressed Stop.  The sounds on the tape accurately reproduce the sounds I heard during that time."

--> So basically, a recording that you make yourself of conversations that you participated in are (1) not criminal or offensive conduct, and (2) completely admissible in court, if you keep good records.

Then there's issue #3...  SHOULD you tape a phone call without the consent of other parties?  All I'm saying is that it's legal, but I'm not saying it's a good idea in all cases.

Some people have suggested telling the agent on the phone that you're taping just so everybody is "above-board" for that call.  Smart!  I've done it, and it works.

Some people have said that they wished they had taped a call where a collector was utterly abusive.  It's kinda fun to complain about a (TRULY offensive) collector, only to hear the "supervisor" say that there wasn't a problem, and then say... "Well.. but...  Let's just listen to the tape then, shall we?"  

Don't be a victim -- but approach all with kindness.

--MegaPo
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Johnny View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13/December/2004 at 2:55pm

 

 It is good to see you again, Megapo.  

 Thank you so much for explaining this stuff.

 If people ask me how to present the matter to a collector (as in recording conversations), I usually tell them to say "due to consumer protection and assurance reasons this call is being recorded ..".

 You da man.

 Johnny  

 

 

Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote polyhymnia61 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13/December/2004 at 4:41pm

MEGA POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweetie, I missed you!!!!

Hope things are well with you!! Things are so much better for me...

Don't run away!! Even though (or maybe because?) life is much sweeter for me, I can't stay away from the forum...Maybe it's a "pay it forward" thang...But until laws change and the system is overhauled, I can't abandon this forum...It's not about me anymore, I guess...

Please stay in dah loop!!

Poly

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13/December/2004 at 7:51pm

Nice to see you back, Meg!

Hey Johnny! How about just saying, "Hey, schmuck! You know that I just taped everything you said? Kiss your licence goodbye!"

That works too, if you stop the tape just before you say those words.

What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/December/2004 at 6:26am

works for me, anyways.  can you imagine the panic on the other end of the phone after you hang up ?? 

professionals built the titanic but amateurs built the ark...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100yearstogo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16/February/2005 at 5:57pm
On the subject of recording phone calls:
I spent several years as a private investigator. The head of the organization I worked for had his first career as a lawyer. Whenever I had a question about the legality of an action he would go to the bookshelf and look it up and make me tell him.
"INTERCEPTION OF A PRIVATE COMMUNICATION"
is what you are talking about.
The last time I checked (at my local library) the criminal code of Canada said that as long as one party who is in the conversation has knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and consents to it, the recording is legal. The recording is basiclly a memory aid and a help to your credibility.

Furthermore, this IS ADMISSIBLE IN COURT.

I would suggest that you tape EVERY SINGLE CALL YOU HAVE with collectors, because, in my experience, they lie like rugs! They frequently threaten and they don't care if you loose your job because of the "urgent" messages they leave at your workplace. (I speak from experience here the park bench is closer than you think)

Please don't take my word about the criminal code; Go look it up amd see for yourself at the library.

I would also like to suggest that you use a regular tape recorder and a $7 suction cup microphone. (Radio Shack - no, I don't work for them and you can probably find one cheaper elsewhere) It might be a pain to use a stick on microphone, but bringing the original tape (keep a copy) to court is far better than a cd because it leaves fewer doubts in the judge's mind about how you might have doctored the recording. After they hang up state the time and date. Don't get clever and ask them what the date is, they might catch on. Also be aware that it is important to log each communication with them at the time it happens. Year; Date; Start Time; End Time; Key comments such as what (s)he said and what you promiced. The original notes in a bound blank book are best (cops & P.I.'s use it), but a scribbler (not coil) would do.

Never, never, never, never tell them they are being recorded!!!

Also be aware that "third party disclosure" is illegal.
If they threaten to call your payroll officer and reveal information, they are either stupid or lying.

Never say anything that you would be uncomfortable having played back in front of 65 people and the judge who is deciding if you are the victim or just an irresponsible con artist.

phew!! that was my first post, I hope It helps someone.
Venting it certainly helped me.
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MegaPo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MegaPo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/February/2005 at 2:20pm
I agree with the way 100yearstogo put it: "the Criminal Code of Canada said that as long as one party who is in the conversation has knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and consents to it, the recording is legal."

100yearstogo, you mentioned the offence known as "Interception of a Private Communication." It sounds like a bad thing (like, illegal), but you're right: technically, the recording of a telephone call is an example of "interception." However, not every interception is a criminal offence. (Most aren't!)

In fact, the only interceptions (eavesdropping or recording) of a telephone conversation that could be considered criminal are when:

(1) the originator OR the intended receiver are within Canada, AND the circumstances made the originator believe (reasonably) that the message would be heard by the receiver only;
     AND...
(2) the interception was intentional, and took place WITHOUT any consent of any party in the conversation.

Both conditions must be met, or the interception is not an offence. If even one person in a conversation (regardless of how many participate) permits a recording, then they can record it, or even get a friend to record it. You only need one-party consent. (And the consenting party doesn't even need to speak!)

Your advice is smart: People shouldn't take our word for it! Ask a properly licensed lawyer, or go look it up in the Criminal Code of Canada (library or the Government of Canada (Justice) website).

You'll be looking through CCC Part VI, Invasion of Privacy. It is Section 184(1) that describes "Interception of Private Communication" as an indictable offence with a maximum 5-year imprisonment. However, you must read Section 183 for definitions of "interception" and "private communication," plus Section 184(2) for the list of reasons why most recordings are not illegal.

In a nutshell... It is 184(2)(a) that makes it perfectly legal to do what we are suggesting (recording a phone call from a bill collector to you).

But here where our opinions differ, 100yearsago...

Originally posted by 100yearstogo 100yearstogo wrote:

On the subject of recording phone calls:
Never, never, never, never tell them they are being recorded!!!


While I believe we may secretly record calls (legally), I do not believe we should secretly record calls (on moral and practical grounds). It's a judgment call. For members of CanadaStudentDebt, I would ask, "What are your goals?"

If your primary goal is to have a straightforward, polite, and productive conversation that ends with a reasonable solution, then maybe you want to tell a cranky bill collector that your recording a call. That might greatly improve the collector's behaviour. Will telling the collector about the tape give you better service, better solutions? Maybe. Maybe not.

If your primary goal is to roast some dumbassed bill collector, then by all means, tape and don't tell! If that's your mission, then you might have to deal with several bill collectors, because not all of them are breaking the law! But why is that your mission?? Will your vengeance on a cruel bill collector save you any money? Nope.

Not that I'm taking a strong moral stance here. Let me be honest... I taped secretly. If a call was going very badly, I would say, "Easy now, I'm taping the call, so let's turn down the heat a bit -- let's not say anything we'll regret okay? Let's work on the debt."

Now, if a collector had done something illegal or unprofessional, I would not have told about the tape... You know... "enough rope to hang himself," right? But that never happened. I had a few rude jerks, but didn't catch anything illegal.

So I don't know... You're free to choose. I'm just saying that we should think about our goals when we make these decisions.

Heavy.

--Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100yearstogo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/February/2005 at 3:50pm
Good point!! Keep your Eye on your goal.

I Wasn't taking into account the "keep it civil" approach, I guess I forgot that some of them can be polite professionals. I was going on the "enough rope to hang yourself" theory, and if one nasty one gets the firm into hot water, the supervisors might pull back on the reins a bit.

One ex-collector I worked with at the worst of it, told me that I might well be able to cost these jerks their jobs, and possibly sue for defamation of character, and damages due to dismissal from my job, as well as "third party disclosure" of confidential information, but I didn't have any stress-tolerance left by that point. So, you see I've got a little vengance still floating around in my soul.

Thanks for looking up the sections of law. Hope others put them to good use. These guys rely on ignorance to make it easy for them.
As an example: One asked me "why shouldn't I get a court order to take one third of your pay?" I said; "because that would cost you $200 per paycheque"
He chuckled as if at a good chess move; "You're well informed, thats good"
"It's good for me" I said, and repeated my last offer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Staretz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/February/2005 at 8:49pm
What about cell phones?  I work in a call center doing tech support.  I deal with the phone too much as is!  I usually dont even have my phone on when i am at home. What would be a good way to record a cell phone call, if i ever had to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26/February/2005 at 9:10pm

some phones have this feature built in, take a look at your manual and see if you are one of the lucky ones.

also, a CA should NOT be calling you on your cell phone, unless you told them it was ok.  something i read on another thread about how they cannot make you bear the cost of dealing with them, adn since most cell phones are a pay by the minute billing system...i might be wrong about this, however....

professionals built the titanic but amateurs built the ark...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Staretz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/February/2005 at 4:32am
I will have to dig the manual up and look for it.  Though, mind you, now that I am very farsighted, small print is even more of a pain in the behind than it was when I was really obscenely nearsighted!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote momof2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27/February/2005 at 11:40am

staretz

sorry, i forgot about your vision issues - probably because of my constant brain fog.  go to the retailer where you bought the phone or your local bell kiosk at the mall, tell them you misplaced your manual and ask if you have that feature on your phone and if you do, get them to show you how to use it.

 

professionals built the titanic but amateurs built the ark...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jadedlibrarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/March/2005 at 2:03am

Originally posted by 100yearstogo 100yearstogo wrote:

Thanks for looking up the sections of law. Hope others put them to good use. These guys rely on ignorance to make it easy for them.
As an example: One asked me "why shouldn't I get a court order to take one third of your pay?" I said; "because that would cost you $200 per paycheque"
He chuckled as if at a good chess move; "You're well informed, thats good"
"It's good for me" I said, and repeated my last offer.

Is this true? Can someone make reference? I'd love to be able to say the same thing when they start calling.. but quite ignorant about it all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100yearstogo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19/March/2005 at 10:12am
If he could do it for $5 he wouldn't be threatening to.

Threats are free. Lies are free.

Do a budget and tell him how much you can pay. Don't negociate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote terminal_bong_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/June/2005 at 3:08pm

This has been answered a million times by now im sure. But any way... It is legal in canada to record a phone conversation as long as one party is aware that the conversation is being recorded. So whether it is your self recording or the poerson on the other end, as long as one of you knows it, its all good.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14/June/2005 at 5:53pm

Yes. As long as one of the two consent to the recording. Basically, you are consenting to yourself. The lawmakers are geniuses.

 Johnny

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote short_circutz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/May/2006 at 2:58pm

Originally posted by Staretz Staretz wrote:

What about cell phones?  I work in a call center doing tech support.  I deal with the phone too much as is!  I usually dont even have my phone on when i am at home. What would be a good way to record a cell phone call, if i ever had to?

If they call you on your cel, doesn't it cost YOU money for the call?  I thought that they cannot call you when the call will cost you money...

BTW....this is my first post...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/May/2006 at 3:44pm
...much to the disadvantage of the Canada Student Loans Program and those who administer it. 
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." - Jean Chretien
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18/May/2006 at 6:23pm

Show your bill to a complaint invstigator within your provincial ministry, and quote them on the section of the collection agencies' act that describes the prohibited activity with respect to incuring costs upon a debtor in order to collect a debt.

They could not argue withyou over it, that is for sure.

Johnny

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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

solvestudentdebt.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Staretz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16/June/2006 at 12:51pm

Johnny wrote:

"Show your bill to a complaint invstigator within your provincial ministry, and quote them on the section of the collection agencies' act that describes the prohibited activity with respect to incuring costs upon a debtor in order to collect a debt. "

if it ever comes to that, I certainly will!

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